ALASKA CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION

November 10, 1#55

THIRD DAY

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order and the Secretary will call the roll. #10 a.m.#

(Mr. John Hall called the roll at this time.) MR. JOHN HALL: Mr. President, I find that all delegates are present excepting Frank Peratrovich who has not yet appeared, sir.

PRESIDENT EGAN: A quorum is present. The Convention will please stand while Reverend Armstrong comes forward to give the daily invocation.

ARMSTRONG: Let us bow in prayer. Almighty Father, who hath placed in our hands the lives of our fellow Alaskans, bring us to this Convention as delegates in their behalf. Continue to bring Thy spirit of wisdom upon us. Thou dost know that we will differ from one another as we search for true precepts for the great land. Thou dost know how our voices will rise as champions of ideals we hold eternal. Father, keep the good pace of brotherhood within us as we have started on this journey, and impose Thy will when we fail to surrender. Depose wrong when it is bred in selfishness, anger and sectionalism, and 0 God, our Father, we pray Thee of all to be our constant guide. In Jesus' holy name, amen.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Secretary will read the minutes of yesterday's meeting. Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I move the reading of minutes of yesterday's session be dispensed with. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson moves and asks unanimous consent that the minutes of yesterday's meeting be dispensed with. Is #here objection? Hearing no objection, it is so ordered. Mr. McNealy?

MCNEALY: In view of the developments since yesterday's nominations for Secretary of this Convention, and at the request of Mrs. Alexander, I wish to withdraw her name which was placed in nomination by me.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Do you put that in the form of a motion, Mr. McNealy?

MCNEALY: I so move Mr. President and ask unanimous consent of the body.

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PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McNealy asks unanimous consent that his nomination of Mrs. Alexander for permanent Secretary be withdrawn. Is there objection? Hearing no objection, it is so ordered. Mr. Secretary, do you have any communications? Here's one if you would like to read it to the Convention.

MR. JOHN HALL: "To the President of the Constitutional Convention, The Fairbanks Board of Education extends a cordial invitation to each delegate to the Constitutional Convention to be present at the dedication of the Austin E. Lathrop High School on Sunday, the 13th of November, at 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, Lathrop High School Gymnasium. James C. Ryan, Superintendent, November #, 1#55."

PRESIDENT EGAN: I believe at this time the Chair should announce the names of the proposed additional appointees to the Permanent Help Committee. Yesterday the Chair announced the names of Ralph Rivers, Mr.Yale Kilcher, Mr. John Coghill as members of the Committee. In addition to those names the names of Helen Fischer, Dora Sweeney, John Hellenthal, John A. McNees, Mr. William Laws and Mr. William Knight. If there is no objection those people will stand as the members of the Permanent Help Committee. The Chair at this time will read to you the names of the persons he has chosen as appointing to the Committee on Rules: Mr. Burke Riley, Mr. John Rosswog, Mr. M. J. Walsh, Mildred Hermann, Mr. Steve McCutcheon, E. B. Collins, George Sundborg, Mr. Ralph Rivers, and Mr. Edward B. Davis. If there is no objection those delegates will be named as the Permanent Committee on Rules. Hearing no objection it is so ordered. Mr. Taylor?

TAYLOR: Mr. President, it seems to me that the Convention should have a Committee on Committees appointed for the purpose of advising upon the selection of the various committees which are going to function during the Convention. Either we have to do that or it is going to be a matter of the President appointing all of the committees without reference to any advice from the body.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair feels, Mr. Taylor, that the quicker the Convention can do something toward that end, the better it will be in expediting the real business that will confront the Convention, and just what do you propose, is there any proposal at this time?

TAYLOR: To get this under way, I would make a motion, Mr. President, that a committee of seven be appointed fro:# the Body to act as a Committee on Committees and that they, after the selection, be instructed immediately to pursue their work in regard to the recommendation for members of the various committees.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Do you ask unanimous consent that the Chair appoint seven, Mr. Taylor?

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TAYLOR: I ask unanimous consent.

JOHNSON: I rise to a point of information. It seems to me that the Convention is not yet duly organized since we have not elected a permanent Secretary. Until such time are you in a position to appoint a permanent committee?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson, with relation to the Committee on Committees, it was the Chair's feeling when Mr. Taylor asked that, that the matter be held over until we get along a little further in our business this morning and then at that time it would be in order, although the Chair feels also it was in order to bring the urgency of the matter before the Convention. Mr. McLaughlin?

MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. President, I have a recommendation or suggestion to the Chair#an for instructions to be issued to the Rules Committee. It is my understanding that the Rules Committee that you have constituted does contemplate reporting out on the subject of committees, and I would request or suggest to the Chair, I'm not making it a motion, that the Chair instruct the Rules Committee immediately after it goes into session to consider first those sections of the rules concerning the establishment of committees and those sections of the rules concerning the appointment of those committees and immediately thereafter, after the considiration of that portion, that it report back to the assembly. I believe that would properly expedite things so that we could get on the road.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is a very pertinent idea Mr. McLaughlin. If there is other discussion from the Convention floor on the matter, it will be welcome. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I would like to incorporate the suggestion of Mr. McLaughlin's in the form of a motion and ask unanimous consent, because I do not feel that the Chair can instruct the committee, but maybe the Chair might have the authority to but probably would not want to do that while I feel that the Convention should ask the Chair to so instruct the Rules Committee, so I make that in the form of a motion and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Smith, your point of order.

SMITH: Point of order, Mr. President; it appears to me that we are back to the same question that we are not yet organized. If I remember correctly, the nominations for a permanent secretary were left open from yesterday's meeting. ls that correct?

PRESIDENT EGAN: You are correct, Mr. Smith.

SMITH: It would appear to me that that would be the first order of business this morning.

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PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Smith, the Chair feels that Mr. Johnson's ouestion there was in order and that the Convention should proceed first, before having the Rules Committee go out at all as a permanent committee. We could proceed first with the completion of the election of the permanent secretary.

SMITH: With that thought in mind, and without any reference to the frozen tundra of the north or the sparkling streams or leaping salmon of Southeastern Alaska, I would like to place in nomination the name of George Sundborg as Secretary.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Smith has placed in nomination the name of Mr. George Sundborg as Secretary of the Convention. Mr. Riley.

RILEY: Since we have one nomination now, I would like to submit the supplemental report which was suggested would be forthcoming when your Committee on Rules last reported. That Committee has given more considered judgment to the question propounded yesterday afternoon than was possible in fifteen minutes then available to us, and we have concluded that because the Legislature left the option clearly with the Convention to create the offices of president and secretary, and such other offices that were deemed necessary, that Section 11 of the Organic Act does not apply in this situation, and if any me##er of the 1#55 Legislature would be eligible to hold the office of Secretary, as well as the others indicated.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is the report of your Committee, Mr. Riley?

RILEY: That is the report of the Committee, and I ask unanimous consent for its adoption.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent for the adoption of the report. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered. Are there other nominations for Permanent Secretary? Mr. Fischer?

V. FISCHER: I would like to direct a question to the Chairman of the temporary Rules Committee and that is whether the Committee had any recom#endations as to whether the Secretary should be a member or should not be a member of the Convention.

RILEY: Mr. Fischer, I find Mr. Chairman, through the Chair, the Committee came forward with no recommendation but as proposed last evening we might have a resolution to subbit but in view of this further consideration and the infallibility of human judgment, we reached a different result in our deliberations and have no resolution or recommendation beyond this report.

BARR: #1r. Presidont...

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PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr.

BARR: Is it the thought of the body that we should have an administrative officer also, or is this secretary going to be a working secretary? I don't believe that any member of the Convention would want to be a working secretary as that would take up too much of his time, and I would like to place a name in nomination for secretary if you also have an administrative officer.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there anyone who can answer that question?

RILEY: Mr. President, the rules under which we are operating at the moment don't provide for an administrative officer as such. The rules adopted yesterday to cover this situation I believe are still in effect.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion? Mrs. Sweeney.

SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, the rule we adopted yesterday stated that the Secretary need not be a delegate.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is correct, Mrs. Sweeney.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. Chairman, I move and ask unanimous consent that the nominations be closed.

SWEENEY: I object.

MCCUTCHEON: I will so move that nominations be closed. METCALF: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon moves, seconded by Mr. Metcalf, that nominations be closed. The subject is open for discussion at this time. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Before nominations are closed or before that motion is put to a vote, I would like to have the privilege of the floor to decline the nomination for the position of Secretary. I feel that if the Secretary is to do what our rulo sets forth he is to do, that is be the principal administrative officer of this Convention, it is not practical for a member of the Convontion to be the Secretary or a Delegate to the Convention, so I would ask to docline nomination as Secretary of this Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg asked unanimous consent that his name be withdrawn from permanent Secratary of the Convention. Is there objection? Hearing none it is so ordered. Mr. Sundborg's name will be withdrawn. Mrs. Sweency?

SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to ]OlOW if the name of Tom Stewart still remains as a nominoo for this position?

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PRESIDENT EGAN: The name of Tom Stewart has been presented to the Convention and it still is before us, Mrs. Sweeney.

SWEENEY: Then I withdraw my objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Are there other nominations for permanent Secretary of the Convention. What was the motion?

MRS. ALEXANDER: The motion was for closing nominations.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Pardon me, the Chair forgot about Mr. Stewart's nomination having been before us at the time the motion was made. The question is __ Mr. McCutcheon?

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. Chairman, the objection to my request for unanimous consent has been withdrawn.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg.

HELLENTHAL: I object to the request for unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard from Mr. Hellenthal. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I wo1:1d like to ask if the name of Katherine Alexander is still before the body.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been withdrawn, Mr. Sundborg. It has been moved and seconded that nominations be closed. All those in favor of closing the nominations say "aye". All opposed say "no".

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Secretary will call the roll.

(The roll was called with the following result:

Ayes: 30 - Coghill, Davis, Doogan, H. Fischer, V. Fischer, Hermann, Hilscher, Hurley, King, Knight, Laws, Londborg, McCutcheon, McNees, Marston, Metcalf, Nerland, Poulsen, Reader, Riley, R. Rivers, V. Rivers, Rosswog, Stewart, Sweeney, Taylor, VanderLeest, Walsh, White, Wien.

Nays: 22 - Armstrong, Awes, Barr, Boswell, Buckalew, Collins, Cooper, Cross, Emberg, Gray, Harris, Hellenthal, Hinckel, Johnson, Kilcher, McNealy, Nolan, Nordale, Robertson, Smith, Sundborg, Mr. President.

Absent: 1 - Peratrovich.

HERMANN: Mr. Chairman, I would like the privilege of changing

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my vote. I must have been asleep. I want to vote "yes" instead of "no".

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Hermann asked to change her vote to "yes". If there is no objection, it is so ordered.

MR. JOHN| HALL: Mr. President, the "ayes" have 30 votes and the "nays" 24, and there is one absentee.

PRESIDENT EGAN: So the motion is carried and the nominations for permanent Secretary are closed. Mr. Rivers?

V. RlVERS: Is the only name in nomination the name of Mr. Stewart, is that correct?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is correct Mr. Rivers.

MCCUTCHEON: In view of the one nomination, I ask unanimous consent that the body cast a unanimous ballot and the record show unanimous ballot for Tom Stewart for Secretary.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked that the Convention cast a unanimous ballot for Tom Stewart for permanent Secretary of the Convention. Is there objection? Hearing no objection Mr. Tom Stewart is now the permanent Secretary of the Convention. (applause)

(Mr. Stewart came forward and shook hands with Mr. Hall and with Mr. Egan.)

MR. JOHN HALL: Mr. President, I want to thank everybody here.

(Rising vote of thanks)

I will tell Judge Forbes what a rousing cheer we got when I got relieved.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hall, on behalf of all the Delegates to the Convention, we wish to thank you for your services, the wonderful services you have rendered.

MR. JOHN HALL: I am glad I met all of you. I am not running for any office, but if I do don't you all forget me.

(Mr. Hall left Convention Hall at this time.) PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I rise to a point of information on your Committee on Permanent Help. It was brought up in our meeting last night whether this committee would be eventually the third committee listed on the consideration of Convention committees prepared by the Alaska Statehood Committee, which is the Committee on

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Convention Administration, or whether it would take in the full scope of this work, or whether it would just be the hiring of the permanent help for the beginning of the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair would feel that when the Committee on Committees gets functioning and has its first meeting that perhaps that committee might consider that question. If there is no objection from the Convention floor, then the Committee on Rules will consider that question in their first meeting, if possible. We don't have anything on the floor before us at this time. Here is another announcement that the Secretary will read.

SECRETARY: From the University of Alaska to "President, Alaska Constitutional Convention, This is to remind you that tonight, between the hours of #:00 and 11:00 P.M. at the President's Residence, Mrs. Patty and I are giving a reception in honor of the delegates, their wives and husbands. We hope that you can all be present because this will give you an excellent opportunity to meet the members of the Fairbanks Chamber of Commerce, the officers of the City government. some of the staff members of the air bases in this area, plus the deans and department heads of the University faculty. Mrs. Patty has suggested that the delegates all wear their name tags to facilitate introductions. Will you please announce this so the delegates will be reminded of the affair?"

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers?

R. RIVERS: Last night you appointed three members of a committee, the Permanent Help Committee. This morning you appointed several other members. Well, those three had a rump meeting last night and I wish to report that the Statehood Committee has provided us with seven people, five of whom were on duty yesterday, and two more typists who will be available from now on. That is only seven. We still need a sergeant at arms and a messenger and mail clerk, etc., but until the committee meets as a complete group and looks over some thirty-five applications which have been processed through the Employment Security Office here, we recommend that the body just simply approve, probably in the absence of objection, of our going ahead with the staff of people thus far provided by the Statehood Committee, and then we will render a complete report with a job line-up and specs and things, after consultation with the Secretary on what the personnel needs are going to be.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair is wondering if it might be, inasmuch as the other six members of the Committee had not been announced last evening, if it might be possible during the first recess to have a private meeting with the new members and enlighten them on the help so far and then make that request after having had a complete full committee meeting. Would that be in order?

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R. RIVERS: Quite all right. All I am asking now is that the group coincide with the idea of just going ahead with those who #ave been selected for us until your committee has a chance to render a full report.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there objection to Mr. Rivers' request? Mrs. Sweeney?

SWEENEY: I don't quite understand if Mr. Rivers intends that this group be considered as permanent and we add to it or what.

PRESIDENT EGAN: I don't think that's what he means Mrs. Sweeney. I think he means that until our full committee can have an opportunity to bring back a complete report, to go on with the help we have now until that time. Mr. Taylor?

TAYLOR: Just to validate what the committee has done in regard to this help they have at the present time.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is true. Is there objection? Mr. Walsh?

WALSH: Mr. Chairman now that the Convention is organized I deem it appropriate at this time to bring to the attention of the delegates the great loss that this Convention has felt through the passing of Senator Howard Lyng of Nome who was duly elected from the Ninth District, Second Judicial Division, as a delegate to this Convention. Out of recognition to the service he has rendered this Territory by Senator Lyng I ask at this time unanimous consent that the members, with respect to the memory of Senator Lyng, rise and maintain silence for one minute.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will rise.

(The Convention stood and maintained silence for one minute.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention may be seated, and the record will show the manner in which the Convention honored Mr. Lyng. Mr. Walsh?

WALSH: I have prepared a brief resolution covering the passing of Senator Lyng which I would like to send to the desk to be read by the Clerk, after which I will ask unanimous consent for its passing.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The resolution will be brought forward and the Secretary will please read the resolution.

SECRETARY: "WHEREAS the grim hand of death has reached into our midst and suddenly removed from us Senator Howard Lyng, of Nome, duly elected delegate to Alaska Constitutional Convention from the #th District, Second Judicial Division; and

"WHEREAS Senator Lyng rendered distinguished public

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service to Alaska over the years, both in the House of Representatives and Senate of the Alaska Legislature; and

"WHEREAS Senator Lyng was an early and ardent advocate of statehood for Alaska and represented the Territory on one occasion before Congressional committees in Washington, D.C. pleading the cause of statehood; and

"WHEREAS in the passing of Senator Lyng, Alaska has lost one of its leading statesmen and this Convention has been deprived of his counsel, wisdom and experience.

"NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the members of Alaska Constitutional Convention in regular meeting assem#led at College, Alaska, do hereby extend their profound sympathy to Senator Lyng's sister, Mrs. A. F. Bullard, the only surviving member of his family, whose address is Box #10, Porterville, California, together with a copy of this Resolution, and that this Resolution be made a part of the permanent record of this Convention."

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard the resolution. Mr. Walsh?

WALSH: I ask unanimous consent of the adoption of this resolution.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Walsh asks unanimous consent that the resolution be adopted by the Convention. Hearing no objection the resolution is ordered adopted by the Convention. The Secretary is instructed to have copies made and to particularly see that the sister receives a copy of this resolution. Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBORG: Now that we are completely organized I would like to renew the motion which was made here earlier, and which died because objection was made to it and that is the motion that the Rules Committee when it convenes shall first take up the matter of committees and shall as soon as it reaches a proposed rule on that subject, report the same to this Convention. I move and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer?

V. FISCHER: Point of order. Yesterday another motion was made and died because it was made too early and that was for the adoption of the Constitution which probably should precede this motion, and maybe the maker of that motion yesterday could renew it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Smith?

SMITH: Mr. President, I was out of order yesterday and I do not believe that we have yet #eached the point where that

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action is indicated. After going through the handbook completely it would appear to me that the work of the organizing of the committees should come before that action is taken. That. should be the first action of the Convention after the committees are set up and before it begins its work. That is the feeling I have at the present time.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Victor Rivers.

V. RIVERS: It seems appropriate to me in order to function smoothly and to get all of our Committees out that we should, and also to prepare an order of business, perhaps to get a personnel organization chart approved so we can have our staff including our Chief Clerk, assistant, etc., we should at this time take a recess. I am going to move and ask unanimous consent that we recess for a period of one-half hour for the purpose of these committees to bring in recommendations and at the same time an order of business be prepared. We are going ahead here now without any established order of business. I think it is highly appropriate to the assistance of the Chair for the orderly functioning of this body that we establish an agenda and order of business and I ask unanimous consent for a half-hour recess in order to do that.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers so moves. Is there a second to the motion?

JOHNSON: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It's been moved and seconded that the Convention stand at recess for one-half hour. It is not debatable.

WHITE: Point of information?

PRESIDENT EGAN: For a point of information, the Chair will hear you Mr. White.

WHITE: Yesterday, it was moved that the draft of the proposed rules as suggested by the Alaska Statehood Committee and the PAS be mimeographed in order to provide each delegate with a copy. I would like to inquire if those copies are ready?

SECRETARY: They are ready. They are available upstairs if you wish.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If the Secretary would send for them now it would probably be in order that Mr. Harris?

l#RRIS: I was wondering if Mr. Sundborg's motion on Committees was accepted without objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: No, it's not. We have before us the motion to recess for one-half hour so that the Rules Committee

particularly can meet and bring back some sort of report. Mr. Barr.

BARR: Mr. President, although this motion is not debatable I have no way of knowing how to vote without information. I would like to hear the basis of the objection, before I vote.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The basis of the objection? Would there be objection allowing as a point of information for Mr. Sundborg to explain his objection? If there is no objection, Mr. Sundborg you may explain your objection.

SUNDBORG: My objection was only for the purpose of trying again to propose to the Convention that it adopt the motion, that before we take this recess it instruct its Rules Committee on ##'at it should do and that instruction specifically would be that the first thing it take up would be the matter of committees and the rest of the organization, and that as soon as it shall reach a proposal, a decision on a proposal to the Convention on the subject that it come in and make a report to the Convention. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers do you object to that?

V. RIVERS: I understood that we already had unanimous consent on that point, is that correct?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is what the Chair understood, that the Rules Committee was instructed to do.

V. RIVERS: I again ask unanimous consent for a one-half-hour recess.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there objection? Hearing none, the Convention is at recess for one-half hour.

(At this time the Convention recessed, 10:## a.m.#

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Does the Chairman of the Rules Committee have a report to make to the Convention?

RILEY: Mr. Chairman, the Rules Committee regrets holding the Rules Committee so long. Perhaps I can spread this out. I think each of you has copies of the suggested rules which were prepared by PAS and the Statehood Committee. Referring to these Rules on Page 5, Chapter 5, as a part of the Committee report I shall suggest that we are not necessarily adopting the numbers in each case of these rules, but we are proposing a sequence because the earlier rules yet to be considered may affect the numbering. I will refer to them by number as shown here. however. Rule 12, as adopted by the Committee and recommended to the body is unchanged. It is adopted as written, "The President shall appoint the members of and shall name the

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Chairmen of all Standing Committees unless the Convention shall otherwise order. The President may fill vacancies on Standing Committees in the same manner." What is your pleasure, Mr. Chairman?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is it the pleasure of the Convention that as each rule is read that a move for adoption to be made in order to open the particular rule for debate or to adopt it? That is your wish then?

RILEY: I shall move and ask unanimous consent that Rule 12 as written be adopted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent that Rule 12 be adopted. Mr. Hellenthal objects.

HELLENTHAL: I object. I object on the grounds that I feel the rule should be amended so that the members of the committee should pick the chairman of the committee which I think is more in keeping with the spirit of this group.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal, just for a moment, did any one second, did you move?

RILEY: I asked unanimous consent, I so move. MCCUTCHEON: I'll second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon seconds Mr. Riley's motion. Now the subject is open for discussion. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL. I so move and ask unanimous consent that Rule 12 be changed to read that the President shall appoint the members of the standing committees and chairmen shall be appointed within the committees.

MCCUTCHEON: I rise to a point of order.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Your point of order Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. Riley's motion to adopt has been seconded by myself. Mr. Coghill proposes another motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: He moved to amend the amendment. MCCUTCHEON: I beg your pardon.

COGHILL: I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDEl# EGAN: Mr. Coghill moved and asked unanimous consent. DAVIS: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been objected to by

Mr. Davis.

COGHILL: I so move.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there a second to Mr. Coghill's proposal for the amendment to the amendment?

KNIGHP: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Knight seconded Mr. Coghill's motion on the amendment to the amendment so we now have before us the question of changing Rule 1# to read that the President shall appoint the members of and shall name the chairmen of all the standing committees, that the members of the committees shall name the chairmen of all standing committees. The amendment to the amendment is open for discussion. Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: Mr. Chairman, as I stated in brief, I support this amendment because I feel it is democratic. It leaves the power over the selection of the chairman with the members of the committee who will work with the chairman, and who presumably will wait a few days until they know the qualifications of the members and then finally pick their permanent chairman. I believe that the Rule 12 as proposed by the Rules Committee came from the standard method which is more applicable to a political convention or more applicable to a legislative body such as a house of representatives or senate, but in this body, which is a working body pledged to the one aim of writing the best constitution that we can have, I think it would be more democratic to let the members themselves pick the chairmen of the committees.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion on the amendment to the amendment? Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I have no strong feelings on this subject, and I think probably the other members of the Rules Committee do not have strong feelings either. We felt, however, that here we have a group of fourteen committees, and in order to achieve balance between the committees and not have it occur that one member of this Convention for example might be the chairman of three separate committees, which conceivably could occur if we leave the organization to the committees or members thereof. We felt we should give our President, and it says here, "unless the Convention shall oth#rwise order on any specific matter the right to name the chairmen of the committees."

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion on the amendment to the amendment? Or rather on the amendment to the proposed rule? Mr. Metcalf did you have something __

METCALF: Mr. Chairman, speaking from my own point of view, many of these folks I am unacquainted with, and serving on a committee I would not feel qualified to pick the best available

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person for the chairmanship, and I would not feel qualified, and therefore feel that the chairman of the convention would be much better qualified to pick the chairmen of the committees.

HURLEY: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hurley.

HURLEY: Mr. President, I am speaking for the amendment. I too feel that it is more of a democratic process to elect the chairmen from the committee. I feel that the committees will be small enough so that in the matter of a small time we will become well acquainted with each other and the choice of a chairman will then be unanimous consent of the Committee.

BARR: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr.

BARR: Mr. Metcalf has stated my views pretty well. There are quite a few of us who don't know each other and I am confident that the President does know most of us, and we have chosen a President with confidence that he is able to fill his job and run this Convention properly, and although it is more democratic for the members of each committee to choose their chairman, it is certainly the least efficient and if they wanted to put off choosing a chairman until towards the end of the Convention they would probably be pretty well acquainted with each other by that time. I think each committee should start out with a chairman and if th#y don't have a chairman to start with, there will be nobody running the show.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further debate?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If not, the question is, "Shall the amendment to Rule 12 of the Proposed Standing Rules be adopted?" All in favor signify by saying "aye," all opposed "no." So the amendment to Rule 1# has failed.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Now the question is, "Shall Rule 12 be adopted?" Are there further amendments? Mr. Nolan.

NOLAN: Now does this preclude the possibility of this committee on committees that we were talking about? Does the part there in which the Convention shall take such action as they feel wise still prevail? I would contend that the Convention can still, if they so desire appoint a committee on committees.

______# #

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PRESIDENT EGAN: That wording would give the #o#.#####n jurisdiction over anything they desired in the future. Davis?

DAVIS: I don't know if this is the proper time for this but we proposed a resolution as a Rules Committee that there be established a committee on committees, if that is what the body wants, to assist and advise the President in the appointment of members of the various committees of the Convention. We still believe that the President should do the appointing.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair feels that that statement was in order and might clarify Mr. Nolan's question. If there is"no further debate the question is, "Shall Rule 12 be adopted. All in favor signify by saying "aye", all opposed by saying, no."

So Rule 12 has been adopted by the Convention. Mr. Riley, you may proceed with the reading of Rule 13.

RILEY: Rule 13. The Standing Committee of the Convention and the number of members thereof, respectively shall be as follows:

1. Committee on Rules, nine members

Committee on Administration, nine members 3. Committee on Style and Drafting, nine members

In Subdivision # is the first change that the Committee has proposed and that change is that the word "resolutions" be stricken so it will read:

4. Committee on Ordinances, and Transitional Measures, nine members

5. Committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, seven members Committee on Suffrage, Elections, and Apportionment, seven members

Committee on Legislative Branch, seven members Committee on Executive Branch, seven members Committee on Judiciary Branch, seven members

10. Committee on Resources, seven members

11. Committee on Finance and Taxation, seven members Committee on Local Government, seven members

13. Committee on Direct Legislation, Amendment and Revision, seven members

and then the Rules Committee had proposed a fourteenth committee to be entitled:

14. Committee on Resolutions and Recommendations, seven members

You have all noted, just from an aside here that the duties of the several committees are spelled out later and we have added coverage for resolutions and recommendations. Now to put the matter on the floor I will ask unanimous consent that Rule 13 be adopted.

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PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent that Rule 13 be adopted.

SMITH: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard.

MCCUTCHEON: I will second the motion to adopt.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon seconds Mr. Riley's motion to adopt Rule No. 13. The motion is open for debate. Mr. Smith?

SMITH: I would like to make inquiry -- would the adoption of this rule prevent the establishment of other committees in case the need arises?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Will the Chairman of the Rules Committee perhaps might answer Mr. Smith.

RILEY: No. The Convention may always take such further action.

SMITH: If I just might say, I do have in mind at least three and possibly four more questions which will require committee action, and just as an illustration, I see no provision in here for a public welfare covering education and health, etc. It might be that matter could be referred to some of the committees, but I just wanted a clarification as to whether additional committees could be established.

RILEY: It was the consensus of the committee, Mr. Smith, that those matters you mentioned might properly fall under the Executive Branch for which a committee has been provided.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there other debate on the motion to adopt Rule No. 13?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If not, the question is, "Shall Rule No. 13 be adopted?" All those in favor of the adoption of Rule No. 13 say "aye," all opposed "no." So Rule No. 13 has been adopted. You may proceed with the reading of Rule 14.

RILEY: Rule No. 14 that was adopted as written in your suggested rules: "Each Delegate except the President shall be appointed to at least one but to no more than three Standing Committees." I ask unanimous consent for its adoption.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent that Rule 14 be adopted. Is there objection? Hearing no objection Rule No. 14 is ordered adopted. Proceed with reading No. 15.

RILEY: "The President #hall be ex-officio member of all Standing Committees but shall not vote except to break a tie." I

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move its adoption and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked by Mr. Riley for the adoption of Rule 15. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered and Rule No. 15 is adopted. Proceed with the reading of Rule 1#.

RILEY: "Rule 1#. The respective Standing Committees shall have the following duties and functions and in addition shall consider and report upon any other matters referred to them:

1. The Committee on Rules shall consider and report upon such changes in the rules of the Convention and changes in organization"

the word "Convention" on the third line of Sub 1 has been stricken for clarity. I beg your pardon, the word "its" has been stricken. ## notes are not the best. "and changes in organization" is the way it will read.

"..as shall be referred to it. It shall consider and report on appeals from rulings of the Chair which may be referred to it. It shall determine appeals regarding the daily calendar of the Convention in accordance with these rules."

Now that is all one rule in some half dozen sections. Perhaps I should proceed to read the whole

PRESIDENT EGAN: I believe you should read the whole rule Mr. Riley.

RILEY: The Committee on Administration shall generally oversee the administrative or business affairs of the Convention, including finances, personnel, printing, physical arrangements for the Convention, and related matters.

3. The Committee on Style and Drafting shall examine and edit all proposals for inclusion in the Constitution which are referred to it for the purposes of avoiding inaccuracies, repetitions, inconsistencies, or poor drafting. The Committee shall have the authority to rephrase or to regroup proposed language or sections of the proposed Constitution but shall have no authority to change the sense or purpose of any proposal referred to it. The Committee shall also be empowered without reference back to the Convention to refer proposals submitted to it to other Committees which may have an interest in the proposal. Where a proposal referred to the Committee appears inconsistent or in conflict with a proposal already acted upon favorably by the Convention at second reading, the Committee shall undertake to resolve the inconsistency

73

or conflict by reference to the Committees concerned." Now here is new language as proposed by the Rules Committee:

"If the Committee shall fail to resolve any such inconsistency or conflict it shall notify the Convention and await its instructions."

We don't feel that we have changed the sense of the matter, but we do think it has been clarified.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Would you read it once more please.

RILEY: "If the Committee shall fail to resolve any such inconsistency or conflict .." and then we strike four words in your text, those four words being "failing to do so" -- "it shall notify the Convention and await its instructions." Subdivision 4, the word "resolutions" is stricken on line 1 to tie back with our earlier recommendation and it reads now: "The Committee on"Ordinances, and Transitional Measures shall be responsible .. the next two words on that line, the third line and the first four words on the following line are all stricken. To back track, "shall be responsible for the consideration of ordinances specified by the Act creating the Constitutional Convention and for the consideration of transitional measures which the Convention enacts in anticipation of statehood." The rest of your text is stricken from this subdivision.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Would you read that again please.

RILEY: Yes. As it is proposed by the Rules Committee, it reads:

"The Committee on Ordinances and Transitional Measures shall be responsible for the consideration of ordinances specified by the Act creating the Constitutional Convention and for the consideration of transitional measures which the Convention enacts in anticipation of statehood."

Now we have inserted an entirely new subdivision 5, which goes back to Committee No. 14, that on resolutions and recommendations and 5, as proposed just spells out the duties of that committee. It reads, the Committee on Resolutions and Recommendations shall consider resolutions and all other matters not germane to the work of other committees and shall make recommendations for action thereon." The paragraph numbered "5" on your text has been renumbered "#" and changes have been made which read as follows:

"The remaining standing committees shall consider such proposals as are indicated by the titles of thc respective committees. Such committees shall draft and submit to the Convention for its consideration sections of the

74

proposed Constitution pertaining to the business of the Committee."

Mr. C#airman, I move and ask unanimous consent that Rule 1# as read be adopted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent that Rule No. 1# as read be adopted. Is there objection? Mr. Robertson?

ROBERTSON: I have no objection but a question. Will that abolish the rules provisions for proposals by individual delegates later on in the rules?

RILEY: No, no coverage of any sort as I see it. That was not the intention of the Committee.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, Rule No. 1# is ordered adopted. Proceed with the reading of Rule No. 17.

RILEY: Rule No. 17. "Each Standing Committee shall submit to the Convention a report or reports, in writing, setting forth its recommendations on all matters referred to it. Any member or group of members of a Standing Committee may submit a minority report to the Convention. A petition signed by one fourth of the elected Delegates shall require any Standing Committee to report to the Convention within the number of days specified in the petition." In short, it is the text as it appears with changes on the last line "within the number of days specified in the petition." Mr. President, I move adoption and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent for the adoption of Rule No. 17. Is there objection? Mr. Barr?

BARR: I object. I would like to, just a point of information, know if that would open up a way for somebody who just wants to heckle the committee to require them to report before they have time to report or maybe they think the committee is falling down on the job when they're actually not. I believe they should be given a certain amount of time before they are required to report.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Well Mr. Barr, the Chair feels that you should be allowed a question. Mr. McCutcheon?

MCCUTCHEON: Directing a comment to Delegate Barr through the Chair, I would like to point out that the petition will require fourteen signatures, and I think it would be difficult for anyone to be frivolous about drawing from a committee something that has not been given full consideration. It would be difficult to get fourteen names, I think, on a petition for a frivolous matter.

BARR: I withdraw my objection.

75

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr withdraws his objection. Is there any further objection? If not, Rule No. 17 is ordered adopted by the Convention. Proceed with Rule 1#.

RILEY: "No Standing Committee may hold meetings during the sessions of the Convention without permission of the Convention." I move its adoption Mr. President and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked for the adoption of Rule No. 1#. Is there objection? Hearing no objection, Rule No. 1# is ordered adopted.

RILEY: Rule 1#. "The deliberations of the Standing Committees shall not be open to the public except upon invitation of the Committee. Each Standing Committee shall notify the Secretary of the time and place of meetings, and the Secretary shall make such notice public." I move its adoption Mr. President and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley, would you read it again.

RILEY: The word "not" was inserted and that was qualified with the addition of the words "except upon invitation of the Committee." It does not propose public meetings but there must be an invitation.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley asks unanimous consent for the adoption of Rule No. 1# as read. Is there objection?

HELLENTHAL: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard.

BARR: I'll second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr seconds Mr. Riley's motion for the adoption of Rule No. 1#. The subject is open for debate. Mr. Rivers?

RIVERS: I rise in support of the motion. The committees have a lot of work to do and need freedom to express themselves to arrive at a consensus of their thinking and, accordingly, the committees in all fairness, could hear anybody who requested to be heard, and that is the reason for saying that the time of these committee meetings shall be posted or publicized by the Secretary. Everyone is supposed to know when we are meeting so that anyone can request to be heard, but we don't want to have them open to the public while we try to develop a consensus of our thinking during all of our exploratory work. We think the committees can do better work if the public is there on invitation or if particular persons who want to be heard, do so upon request, and that is the reason for the rule.

_________________________________

7#

HELLENTHAL: Mr. Chairman...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: This is an unusual rule. I doubt if any other body such as this has such a rule. I know the Congress of the United States does not have such a rule, and I think we would put ourselves open to the well-deserved criticism that we are meeting in secret session, which has an ugly connotation, but which criticism will be leveled at the group unless we adopt a more normal method. I would suggest the method of executive session, that by majority or two-thirds vote of the members of the committee, that the public be excluded to consider stated objects such as, the typical rule would be a matter involving personalities, a matter involving the decorum of the Convention, that is the typical rule. That is the rule of the United States Congress. I think this rule will involve us in great difficulties, and I see absolutely no need for it. Now if the occasion develops that crackpots or someone (I don't think there are many crackpots in Alaska) start plaguing us, then we can take a prophylactic rule such as the one recommended here, but in the absence of that demonstration I think that this rule has no place before our body. I have been through this before with city councils where they elected to meet secretly" is the word the newspapers always use, and I tell you that it does not work, and I see no need for it. If the need arises then let's handle the problem, but not now.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Many another body --

NOLAN: Point of order, do we have a motion before us? PRESIDENT EGAN: A motion is before us and open for discussion.

SUNDBORG: Many another body and I think practically every deliberative body has a rule such as this. Committee meetings of the United States Congress are not open to the public except upon invitation of the committees. Hearings are but committee meetings, I've been excluded from them many times, in Congress. I might say our legislative committee meetings are not open to the public except upon invitation. I might mention to you that the Federal Constitutional Convention not only did not bar the public from its committee meetings, it barred the public from its plenary sessions and it placed a prohibition upon its members even reporting outside of the halls of the Constitutional Convention, and what had gone on, therein and they came out with a pretty good result. I feel we do have to have the freedom which we would have in committee only if we can speak without having a lot of people sitting around breathing down our necks. If a matt or comes before a committee which would require the presence of the public, or

77

where the presence of the public would help the committee reach ( a solution, I am sure any committee would be glad to invite the

public in, or if any member of the public ever makes a reasonable request to be admitted I am sure that almost every committee would admit the public, but I just don't think that business can be conducted efficiently if the public is walking in and out wandering around through these committee rooms all the time we are trying to do serious business.

V. FISCHER: Mr. President...

PRESID#NT EGAN: Mr. Fischer.

V. FISCHER: Mr. Chairman, this Convention is being held in behalf of all of the people of Alaska. We hope that sometime or another many Alaskans will have an opportunity to come to College and listen in on some of these sessions. If they come here they may very well find that most of the time will be spent in committee sessions. If the standing rule is that the public is not admitted, these people may have to sit out in the lounge some place or being having coffee in the cafeteria. I think it is our responsibility to the public to give them an opportunity to watch this Convention at work. The provision in the rule should not be negative. It should be an open committee deliberation with provisions for executive sessions, and since Mr. Hellenthal did not make a motion, I move

PRESIDENT EGAN: There is a motion on the floor.

V. FISCHER I would like to move an amendment to Rule No. 1#, in the second line, after the word "public", eliminate the period, substitute a comma, and insert the words "unless the Committee by two-thirds vote of all the members to which it is entitled votes to hold an executive session." And also in the first line remove the word "not."

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer then offers an amendment to Rule No. 1# removing the word "not" in the first line, inserting a comma after the word "public" in the second line and inserting "unless the Committee by two-thirds vote of all the members to which it is entitled votes to hold an executive session."

WHITE: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been #1oved and seconded that Mr. Fischer's amendment be adopted. #1rs. Hermann?

HERMANN: I think that probably the Convention should remember that no business conducted in the committee itself is even final. What we shall be doing in these committees is threshing out minor details, maybe some major ones too, but the point of the matter is that we have no power to translate that into action until it is brought before the Convention as a whole.

7#

If the public meetings are open to the Convention, which they certainly will be at all times, any discussion on any matter pertinent to the Constitution will be open to the public. It is just a matter of operating a little more efficiently and not burdening the public ear with some of the trivia that often comes up in committee meetings that impelled us to put this in. I am sure that any committee would at any time have a public hearing on any issue that the public was interested enough in to ask for or which we felt they should be interested enough in to ask for. But we have got small committee rooms up there. They are just about big enough for the committees themselves, and when I got in one they're a little crowded. It is just the matter of efficiency and getting the lesser important details ironed out before presenting it here to the Convention. We cannot adopt any section of any important action without Convention approval, and that is the time when the public should come in and hear the arguments. I hope the amendment will fail and that we will have the rule adopted as the committee has written it because we have carefully considered this from all the angles, and I believe it is a good rule as written and recommended by the Rules Committee.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Would the Clerk read back the amendment as it appears in the record? Mr. McLaughlin?

MCLAUGHLIN: I rise about a parliamentary inquiry about the privileges of the whole body. Aren't we somewhat obligated to our host, the University of Alaska? Don't we have a definite meal hour that we're required to be there?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin, that matter was brought to the attention of the President of the Convention some time this morning by some of the members present. It was suggested that we possibly recess at 12:30 instead of 1# o'clock, in order to give them a break over at the cafeteria during their big rush period. If that is the wish of the Convention why it would be the proper time to do so now and get over there and eat but I would like to have the Clerk read the proposed amendment as it appears in the record right now, if it is in order.

CHIEF CLERK: I don't think Mr. Fischer took into consideration the fact that the wording was changed by the Rules Committee and it was added that and unless he asks to have that stricken it is going to be real complicated. If it's not, can we strike the rest?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Perhaps the answer would be to wait until after the recess --

CHIEF CLERK: "except upon invitation of the Committee" goes in there after public".unless you --

V. FISCHER: Mr. President, may I submit --

7#

PRESIDENT EGAN: Excuse me Mr. Fischer. Mr. Taylor has been attempting to get the floor here. Mr. Taylor you are recognized.

TAYLOR: I was going to speak upon the amendment to Mr. Fischer and is more to reiterate the matters that Mrs. Hermann brought forth. Now in my experience in the Legislature, quite a number of sessions since 1###, I have been on many committees, I have been chairman of a great many committees. I think it would not be for the best interest of the committees doing efficient work to allow the public to indiscriminately come into these little committee rooms, take up your time, distract your thoughts from matters of great importance. In the Legislature I never knew of any committee that ever refused to hear somebody; when they told us that they wanted to talk to us about we let them come in and have their say and we were glad to because many times we got worthwhile ideas which we maybe would incorporate in a bill. But just to let them come in to see what we are doing in a committee, it would be crowded, and I feel that it would defeat the purpose of what we are there for and when we are in committee and are studying and discussing these matters to try to bring onto this floor a concrete matter which then the entire public will always be welcome to be here, has a right to be here.

BARR: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr.

BARR: In working in committee, a committee which is drafting a law or some provision of the Constitution for the future, many times a past event is related, perhaps to illustrate a point, a past event which might possibly hurt someone of the public. Also, if the committee room is filled with lobbyists, the committee members may be subject to pressure from lobbyists. They may be considering a measure which they may have to consider for a series of days. Between meetings, of course, they are open to this pressure from lobbyists and I do not think that it is to the best interest of the people of Alaska to open these committee meetings to the public. Now I have been a member of a great many legislative committees and have never been on one that was open to the public, although many people have been invited in to testify or to observe and there is no intention of anyone, so far as I know, to have a secret meeting. It is only for the purpose of better efficiency and to the best interest of the public that the public is excluded.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McNealy?

MC##ALY: I move the previous question.

U#IDENTIFIED DELEGATE: I second the motion.

PRESIDINT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded that the previous question be ordered, but the Chair would like to announce that at the present moment the wording is not exactly in order, and the Chair would wonder Mr. McNealy if it might be in order, thinking of Mr. McLaughlin's request that we do have some obligation to use the facilities there.

MCNEALY: I withdraw the motion to move for the previous question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin?

MCLAUGHLIN: I move for a recess until 1:30 this afternoon. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin asks unanimous consent --

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: I object. I don't think three-quarters of an hour is long enough.

TAYLOR: I would like permission to bring up a special order of business. It is a motion having to do with the Convention. I move that the Secretary be authorized, subject to the approval of the Committee on Rules, to arrange for the tape recording of all plenary sessions of the Convention.

MCCUTCHEON: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded that the Secretary have the authority to arrange for the tape recording of the Convention.

SUNDBORG: That is a pretty big subject which I don't think we should get into before lunch.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, the Chair will ask that that be held over until after the luncheon recess, as a special order of business. If there is no objection the Convention is recessed until 1:45 p.m. The Convention is at recess.

AFTER RECESS (1:## p.m.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. We have before us at this time a special order of business. The Chair would ask unanimous consent that we pass the special order of business until we have the completed action on Rule No. 1#. Hearing no objection it is so ordered. We have before us Mr. Fischer's proposed amendment to Rule No. 1#. Mr. Fischer? Mr. Riley?

RILEY: Mr. Chairman, the noon recess enabled us to discuss

#1

this matter informally, and with the consent of my second I would like to withdraw the committee's motion for adoption of Rule 1# as voiced by the committee.

BARR: His second consents.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley, with the consent of his second, asks unanimous consent to withdraw his motion asking for the adoption of Rule No. 1#. Is there objection? Hearing no objection, it is so ordered. Mr. Fischer?

V. FISCHER: That automatically removes the amendment previously offered by me, does it not?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That would, in effect, remove the amendment offered by you, ##. Fischer.

V. FISCHER: Mr. President, I move that Rule 1# be amended to read as follows:

"The deliberations of the Standing Committees shall be open to the public at such times as may be designated by the respective committees. If a committee finds it to be in the public interest, upon application any citizen may attend committee sessions. Each Standing Committee shall notify the Secretary of time and place of meetings and the Secretary shall make such notice public."

I move for the adoption of this amendment. UNIDENTIFIED DELEGAT#: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer moves and asks unanimous consent that his amendment be adopted. Is there objection? Mr. Davis?

DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, that is not an amendment, that is the rule. It was moved that the rule be adopted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer moves and asks unanimous consent that his amendment be adopted.

DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, that is not an amendment; that is a rule.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair stands corrected, that the rule as offered by Mr. Fischer be adopted. Will the Clerk read the proposed rule again as offered by Mr. Fischer.

(The Chief Clerk read the proposed rule.) PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there objection? Mr. Kilcher. KILCHER: Point of clarification -- that is, we assume that

#2

the committees normally will be closed, that they only will be open on request?

V. FISCHER: Mr. Chairman, this language of the rule is that the committees be free to act as they feel will promote the work of their particular committee. In some cases they may feel that the committee sessions should be closed, but we certainly hope that in most cases unless they are just trying to work out ideas and talking very informally that the meetings will be open, but even if there is a closed meeting, under the second sentence, upon application the committee could still open their sessions up to specific individuals who may be from out of town, or a guest.

KILCHER: I agree with the spirit of the thing, but I don't think the wording is explanatory enough.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Do you offer an objection, Mr. Kilcher? Unanimous consent has been asked that the rule that is proposed by Mr. Fischer be adopted. Is there any objection?

KILCHER: No.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Hearing no objection Rule No. 1#, as proposed by Mr. Fischer is ordered adopted. Mr. Riley, would you proceed with the reading of Rule No. 20.

RILEY: Mr. President, that concludes that portion of the committee report. We were given a limited assignment this morning, and we will proceed after adjournment today with consideration of other rules to offer. I might add, however, that the committee this morning authorized me to introduce a resolution which will correspond with the rules we have adopted and clarify one situation which concerns the Committee on Permanent help and that resolution is that, "RESOLVE#, the Committee on Permanent help be discharged after completion of its initial duties and that thereafter permanent help be the function of the Committee on Administration." To explain that in part, you will see on Page # of the draft that the Committee on Administration, among its other duties, is charged with that of personnel. I offer that resolution and ask unanimous consent that it be adopted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is that the committee that is at present know as the Committee on Permanent Help, be relieved under that title immediately following their report being presented to the Convention, and then a new committee be appointed to be known as a Committee on Administration. Do you all understand the resolution? Do you ask unanimous consent that the resolution be adopted? hearing no objection, the resolution is ordered adopted. At this time we have t## S##C### 0##0# of business before us that was in the fom of a motion by Mr. Taylor. Mr. Taylor is not here at the present time.

#3

Perhaps it would be better to pass it again until Mr. Taylor arrives. It has to do with the authorization to the Secretary allowing him to arrange for permanently taping the proceedings of the Convention. Is it the wish of the Convention that we pass or discuss that matter at this time? Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: In view of the fact that Mr. Taylor is absent, I would request the Chair to revert to the business of Committee Reports. I shall give the report on our first meeting of our Committee on Permanent Help.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Hearing no objection you may proceed with the report of the Committee on Permanent Help.

COGHILL: Mr. Chairman, your Committee met and organized by electing myself as Chairman of the Committee, and I in turn appointed Mrs. Fischer to act as Secretary for the Committee. Our first order of business was a resolution passed by the Committee as such. It was moved that, "No relations of Delegates shall be hired as Convention help, either clerical or administrative." This is a recommendation set by the Committee on Permanent Help to the Convention. It was also felt by the Committee that a nucleus of the more important members of the administrative staff be set up at this time with a chief clerk assigned, a sergeant at arms, a doorkeeper and a messenger. We were without the Rules Committee at the time and were shooting in the dark, so we in turn recommended to the Convention that Mrs. Alexander be appointed as Chief Clerk of the Convention, the salary to be determined later. It was decided that we will meet with Mr. Jack McKay and Tom Stewart for a salary schedule and positions to be filled as recommended by the Statehood Committee and the Rules Committee of this Convention with the salary scale coming from a survey of local wage schedules. The Committee shall meet later on in the day at the pleasure of the Chair. That is my report.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard the report of the Committee on Permanent Help. What is your pleasure? Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Mr. President, I move the adoption of the report and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers?

V. RIVERS: Question, Mr. President. We've heard a rule read there which would not allow the hiring by this body of any relatives. The question is, how would it effect the Secretary who is the son of one of the delegates whom we elected yesterday. It seems to me that the rule has a broad implication there, so the question comes to mind that we have a Secretary that is the son of one of the delegates. I think that --

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers, if you have no objection and the

#4

Convention has no objection, the Chair will order a recess for two minutes. The Convention is at recess.

AFTER RECESS

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: With the consent of the other members of our Permanent Help Committee the word "hereafter" has been inserted in the resolution to read as follows: It was moved that no wives or relatives of delegates shall be hereafter hired as Convention help, either clerical or administrative."

JOHNSON: Mr. President, I accept the amendment and still ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Did you offer that as an amendment Mr. Coghill? MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. President, may I inquire? PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin.

MCLAUGHLIN: Merely for. the information, has any other, since the word "hereafter has applied, have any other relatives been hired?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: No.

#RESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. The record will show that Mr. Coghill has offered the amendment to his resolution and that Mr. Johnson accepted the amendment. The question before you is Mr. Johnson's unanimous consent request that the resolution as amended be adopted by the Convention, or rather the report be adopted by the Convention. Is there objection? Hearing no objection

V. RIVERS: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard. Is there a motion? JOHNSON: I move.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson moves for the adoption of the report. Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal seconds the motion to adopt the report of the Committee. The motion is open for discussion. Mr. Rivers.

V. RIVERS: I'll explain my objection Mr. President. This is

#5

a motion which would adopt a rule for this body. As long as I've lived in the Territory at different levels, you are automatically creating a prohibition which might bar competent people from seeking employment with this group by.the very reason of the fact that they are blood relation. This is the old anti-nepotism clause that has been argued in the Territory for 40 years that I know of and I feel that if we are going to start adopting prohibitions now that it would be a very poor thing to start. It doesn't seem to me logical that we should do otherwise but to base the employment of help upon their qualifications and ability. That should be the only measure, their qualifications, ability and honesty. I have every confidence that our Committee that is going to handle the personnel and the help can take care of that without setting up a prohibitory rule by this body and so for that reason I objected to the unanimous consent and object to the measure for passage.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Victor Fischer.

V. FISCHER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to agree with Mr. Rivers in major part. I think that the term "relatives" is awfully broad and has no definition at all, and possibly it might be limited to wives and husbands. I do not know if the Committee would agree to that, but the thing is that there may be qualified relations of some of these people here. Some of the local residents might be distant relatives who might qualify for particular positions which would in no way be injurious to the success of the Convention. I do not want to make a motion to amend. I would just suggest to the Committee that they might possibly consider amending their rule.

COGHILL: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, did you hear the suggestion?

COGHILL: I believe that this resolution was brought up in the Committee to allow assurance to the general public that there would not be any closed corporation in the permanent help of the Constitutional Convention and that preference would be shown to outsiders of the Convention and not solely to the wives or relations of the delegates here at the Convention. It was a precedent set up by the Committee only to be brought upon the floor as such, in that meeting.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion? Mr. Rivers.

R. RIVERS: The motion was to approve this report. In the report we said that we recommend to the body that we don't hire wives and relatives. Well, that isn't binding on us, I don't think. Accepting the report doesn't bind the Convention to the substance thereof. That is not a resolution, adopting such a fixed policy. We are just a temporary committee. We made a recommendation in connection with the report. You accept the report, you adopt the --

V. RIVERS: The motion was for the adoption of the report. R. RIVERS: Was it for adoption?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The motion was for the adoption of the report, Mr. Rivers. The Committee was the Permanent Help Committee and the permanent committee of this Convention, so the motion is to adopt the report of the Committee on Permanent Help.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no further discussion, the question is, "Shall the report be adopted?" All those in favor of the adoption"of the report say "aye". All opposed say "no". The ayes have it and the report is ordered adopted. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Do you wish this Committee to continue in its work?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, the recommendation of the Committee on Rules, which was adopted, recommended that the Committee on Permanent Help be abolished immediately after submission of your present report and that a new Committee on Administration be appointed to take its place. Of course, that would have to come before the Convention. Someone would have to make such a motion to actually abolish your Committee. Then it would be probably in the providence of the Chair to appoint a new Committee on Administration. Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: The recommendation was at the time they completed their work on which they were engaged and they haven't completed their work yet. They've only made an interim report.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, is your report completed? COGHILL: No it isn't Mr. President.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Well then, you are still a committee. Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: I move and ask unanimous consent that the Chair be directed to appoint a Committee on Committees for the purpose of aiding him in selecting the names for the various committees.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon moves and asks unanimous consent that the Chair appoint a Committee on Committees for the purpose of aiding him, is that solely in an advisory capacity, Mr. McCutcheon? For the purpose of expediting the selection of the membership of the committees, the Chair reserving at all times the right to make any changes the Chair might desire. That's my understanding of your motion. Is there

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objection to the request? That the Chair appoint an advisory Committee on Committees to aid him in selecting the membership of the committees. Hearing no objection, then later today the Chair will announce the advisory Committee on Committees to aid him in selecting the membership of the committees. We still have Mr. Taylor's motion before us, which was carried over as a special order of business, not acted upon because Mr. Taylor has not arrived yet. Mrs. Hermann?

HERMANN: The motion that Mr. Taylor has made has to do with business that was transacted at a meeting of the Statehood Committee last week, the executive committee of the Statehood Committee, at which Mr. Taylor and I and Mr. Atwood only were present, and if there is any explanation needed in connection with this motion, I don't think Mr. Atwood is still here, but I can give it to you I am sure. Mr. Taylor informed me that he had a motion calendar to that he had to attend this afternoon in the Court, and I think he may be delayed for some time. He knew that was set up for a specific time and he discussed it before he left.

PRESIDENT EGAN: What is the wish of the Convention? Shall we pass over it again or consider it at this time? Do you feel it important that it be acted upon as quickly as possible Mrs. Hermann?

HERMANN: Mr. President, it must be acted upon today. HELLENTHAL: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: I move that this group, other than committees in which case the committees if appointed shall have discretion, that this group observe tomorrow Veteran's Day, which is a national and territorial holiday.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You move that the Convention stand, when it does adjourn today, agree to adjourn, stand adjourned until Saturday then Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: That would be agreeable.

PRESIDE#!T EGAN: Because tomorrow being Veteran's Day, a national holiday. Is there a second to that motion? Mr. Rivers.

R. RIVERS: Did Mr. Hellenthal ask unanimous consent or not? May I remark that when this Committee on Committees is announced to advise with the President on the filling out of the entire list of committees that is about a 2#-hour job, and tomorrow could well be observed as a holiday for the members in general, but it proves to be a pretty hard working

day for the President and the Committee on Committees. In New Jersey they adjourned for ## hours while the President consulted and processed the creation or the filling of positions on the committees. By Saturday morning perhaps a complete slate of committees could be announced and we could go ahead and be organized. Tomorrow would not be wasted, even if we acted in that manner. I also think we should have a lO-minute recess sometime this afternoon for the members to write down and place on the Secretary's desk his preference for committee appointments. Now I observed the request the other day that we do that, but half of us haven't done it because there was nothing too definite about it and at that time we didn't even know what the duties of the committees were going to be. Now we all know, so that if we could all do that Mr. President, during a particular recess for that purpose we'd probably all attend to it and then you and the Committee on Committees could have a hard working day tomorrow.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers, the Chair agrees with you. It believes that perhaps while many of the delegates have already turned in their list of preferences, they would do so again and give them to the Secretary now that we've gone through the rules and come to a general understanding of just what this committee functions are going to be. Perhaps it would be better if there might be those delegates who would like to change some of their preferences. Mr. Rivers?

V. RIVERS: Mr. President, I will second the motion of Mr. Hellenthal and ask unanimous consent that we observe tomorrow as Veteran's Day.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked that the Convention observe Veteran's Day and that when the Convention adjourns tonight that it adjourn until Saturday. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered. Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: I believe Mr. Coghill may have neglected to mention that if any members have applications for clerical or administrative work in their pockets that they should turn them in to Mr. Coghill.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If anyone has applications for clerical or administrative work turn them into Mr. Coghill, Chairman of the Permanent Help Committee. Is there anything else to come before the Convention at this time? Mr. Rivers?

V. RIVERS: i think we should refer back to the motion of the special order of business by Mr. Taylor. I ask unanimous consent that we do so. As a member of the Statehood Committee I've gone into that with the other members of the Committee and we should, I believe, discuss it. Unless there is something more pressing that the other members want, I would

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like to refer back to that order of business.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers asks unanimous consent that we refer back to Mr. Taylor's motion which has to do with having the proceedings of the Convention taped. Hearing no objection we are now back on Mr. Taylor's motion. Mr. Victor Rivers.

V. RIVERS: This is not in the form of debate, it is merely suggestions and I think suggestions are in order without a motion on the floor, so I will proceed. As a member of the Statehood Committee, we investigated the matter of sound scribing certain parts of the proceedings of this Convention. I might say that it's not new. The precedents established in other bodies, it was particularly established in the instance of this kind in New Jersey convention. They kept the verbatim notes by the secretary and they sound scribed certain portions, the major portions of formal debate portions of the proceedings. In line with that thinking the Statehood Committee discussed the matter and we talked it over with various technically competent people in that field, and we came up with a proposal that certain portions of the proceedings be sound scribed in addition to the Secretary's notes. I don't know whether this is an appropriate time to discuss cost. The cost did not seem to be on the basis proposed, prohibitive but very much in line and it is my suggestion, it is my thought and the thought of the members of the Statehood Committee that this Convention should make a decision that certain formal parts of the proceedings of this body as a whole be sound scribed, and that was the motion which Mr. Taylor put today, and it was that we would place the handling of the arrangements for those subscribing in the hands of the Secretary and the President as I recall it. Is that correct?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is the way I remember it.

V. RIVERS: I'll make a motion and ask unanimous consent that we adopt the motion authorizing the Secretary and the President to do that at this time.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers, the motion as Mr. Taylor read it did not include that being in there, -- the President being in there -- however, in the discussion 1#here you mentioned it as you --

RILEY: will you read the motion?

CHIEF CLERK: "I move that the Secretary be authorized, subject to the approval of the Committee on Rules, to arrange for the tape recording of all sessions of the Convention."

RILEY: The Committee on Rules rather than the President? PRESIDENT EGAN: That's right.

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V. RIVERS: I ask unanimous consent that the motion be adopted. SUNDBORG: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It's been moved and seconded that the motion be adopted. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I think we should know quite a bit more about just how much more it's going to cost before we decide that we are going to do it. I talked a little bit this morning with Mr. Stewart, our Secretary, and it did not seem to me that it was a very minor charge at all. It seemed to me that it was quite substantial and I'm not convinced that it is worth what it is going to cost. Maybe we could have Mr. Stewart come before us and give us the figures on it, then we'd know what we were voting about.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Nolan.

NOLAN: It seems to me the resolution as read is a little different from Mr. Rivers's. He said the major or more important parts as I understand it whereas the resolution would mean all proceedings. It would be quite a difference there.

V. RIVERS: The explanation I will give on that is that the resolution allows broad latitude in the hands of the Rules Committee to decide the amount they would spend and the amount they would want transcribed. It wasn't the intention to limit them but to allow their judgment some free exercise. As I understand the motion, that is what it would do.

MRS. HERMANN: Mr. Chairman?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Hermann.

HERMANN: At the time we discussed this matter in the Executive Committee of the Statehood Committee, we had a technical advisor from one of the radio stations there to give us a general estimate of the cost. He isn't able to give us complete until he saw what he had to do in the way of printing it but the idea was that all the proceedings of the Convention as a whole would be tape recorded as a permanent record for its historic value in the future and that it would be preserved for all time to come in that manner. Now the Statehood Committee was considerably impressed with the fact that it was not a costly venture and that it was of vast historical significance and importance. Therefore, we accepted a contingent liability for the transcribing of the proceedings for today and yesterday. The first day over at the gymnasium, the opening session, its a station contribution. They did not charge for that. It was a public service program that they meant to put on anyway and there was no charge for it. And in order to give this Convention time to effect a permanent

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organization and decide for itself it it wanted to keep the permanent record available, we underwrote it for the first two.days after the first day ourselves. Now our liability to the station ends today. If you want a permanent record continued you will have to take action today in order to be sure that you have the mechanical staff and others here to handle the recording on your next business day. Portions of the time that were to be covered were the sessions of the entire Convention and not of the committees in their separate sessions. And it was to be recorded exactly as it happened with all of our grammatical errors and wisecracks, which probably ought to be eliminated because of the seriousness of the situation, and we personally felt it was of vast importance that the Territory and perhaps historians of all times should have available for them this particular record. Now I have not talked to the station since we discussed the matter with them, but Mr. Taylor told me that the total cost would be ##,000, and that certainly is terrifically light in view of the importance of the job that we would like to have them do. We will pay for the first two days if the Convention thinks we should, we will pay for them. We have obligated ourselves to that amount, but actually it is a Convention expense the whole thing is a Convention expense that should be borne, and for the sake of future students of history I hope that this Convention will decide to continue with the sound scribing until the end of the Convention, so far as the full plenary sessions are concerned.

WHITE: Mr. President.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. White is trying to get the floor here.

WHITE: I can barely hear you but I rose to the same point of inquiry as Mr. Sundborg merely to say that I am entirely in sympathy with the desire to preserve this Convention for frozen posterity but I am not prepared to vote on anything without knowing the cost of it. Are my figures correct then that if the Convention ran for 75 days the cost would be approximately #1#0 a day?

HERMANN: I have the figures only from Mr. Taylor. I have not talked to the station itself. That is what he told me.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. Chairman, I might offer one other bit of information, that it is estimated that the recording charge is #2#.00 per hour.

SUNDBORG: And that I understand would be on top of an initial $##00 flat charge for the installation. There would be a #2500 charge, then #2# an hour and that may be perfectly reasonable. It sounds like an awful lot of money to me and maybe the Committee has looked into it sufficiently that they know that is the cheapest and best way to transcribe these proceedings. I am not sure that they have, therefore I would not want to

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vote in favor of this until I have quite a bit more information about it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion? Mr. Victor Rivers.

V. RIVERS: I wanted to add one point that the sound scribing of the activities of the New Jersey Convention were used as a partial basis for the compiling of their journal. The journal covered a period of some ninety days and filled a thousand pages, to say nothing of the resolutions and extraneous matters. I feel that this will be of inestimable help in transcribing the journal and also for historical purposes. I feel it will be of help in the courts in determining if they seek intent behind the various clauses of the Constitution when they interpret it. I feel that the cost, again I point out, I feel that the cost as indicated to us was reasonable. I also want to point out that while it was intended to transcribe the plenary sessions, any of the sessions such as the Committee of the whole or any informal or special sessions not dealing with Constitutional business, it was not, I understood, the intent to transcribe that.

BUCKALEW: Mr. Chairman.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: Maybe I'm lost here but we apparently have a court reporter taking everything down. I don't understand then the necessity of the sound scribing. It seems like that would be sufficient. I've talked about #5 worth and I'11 sit down.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Cooper.

COOPER: I would like to know who would be the keeper or where the records will be kept providing the sound scribing. is okayed.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Would that be the Territorial Museum? Mrs. Hermann?

HERMANN: At the time we discussed it, we felt it would be able to be kept in the museum or historical library, either in the University or in Juneau. They will be certainly in the public custody and not in private custody, and the point raised by Mr. Buckalew about the steno typist's records is that we took that into consideration too, but we felt that perhaps it should be supplemented for checking purposes if anybody ever wanted to do it. We would have a record and she would have a record, and it would be possible to play that back at any time anybody wanted the information, and it was well worth the price that it

was going to cost. I hope the Convention will agree to the sound scribing.

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PRESIDENT EGAN: Does anyone else wish to discuss the subject. Mr. Marston?

MARSTON: Mr. President, I think it is very fine to have equipment here and men that can do this job and they are here and that is the modern way today to make a voice recording of your dealings and this is a modern Convention and probably the last one to be held. I can see in the foreseeable future no more constitutional conventions and I think maybe it should be done. I vote for this recording.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: I would ask unanimous consent that the Chair be directed to have Mr. Stewart present himself and advise us of the information he discovered in Hawaii when he was down there visiting to get the information about the Constitutional Convention in the Hawaiian area.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon, the Chair might inform you that Mr. Stewart asked leave to go to the plane to meet the wife of one of the advisors or research men who had been taken ill and his wife is coming in on the plane and he went out to meet her.

MCCUTCHEON: In lieu of your remarks, Mr. President, I withdraw my request.

R. RIVERS: Mr. President, I think it might clarify it if the resolution as submitted by Mr. Taylor were made more specific. Might I see it. (Now has in hand. This says "approval of the Committee on Rules to arrange for the tape recording of all sessions of the Convention." We could stick the words plenary sessions" in front of the word "sessions". We would know then that only those hours when we were in plenary session would the tape recording expense go on. I move an amendment to the motion now before us by inserting the word plenary" in front of the word "sessions .

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers offers an amendment to the motion to insert the word "plenary" before the word "sessions".

R. RIVERS: And I ask unanimous consent.

JOHNSON: Mr. President.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson.

JOHNSON: I am not objecting. I simply rise to a point of information, would the word "plenary include sessions of the body when sitting as a committee of the whole?

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R. RIVERS: No.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked. Is there objection? Hearing no objection the motion has been amended to include the word plenary . Mr. McNealy.

MCNEALY: I am inclined to agree with the statement made by Mr. Buckalew about having a reporter present. And in view of the fact that what I say may be recorded and in public hands for posterity, and in view of the fact that I gained no small number of votes to be elected as a delegate on grounds of getting the Convention over if possible in thirty days and in any event, an attempt to save the taxpayers money, I therefore am opposed to that and the record will so show for posterity.

V. RIVERS: Mr. Chairman, point of order. PRESIDENT EGAN: Your point of order, Mr. Rivers.

V. RIVERS: It has been on my mind for a little while. We have two situations in this Convention. My brother and I, Ralph, both happen to bear the same name and these minutes are going to show a number of "Mr. Rivers's". Some of the things he says I might not entirely agree with and some of the things I say he might not subscribe to. So I wonder how the minutes would be kept in regard to the name, "Mr. Rivers". I also see the same situation at times arising in the case of Mr. B. D. Stewart and Mr. Tom Stewart. We also have the case of Mrs. Helen Fischer and Mr. Victor Fischer so as a point of order it seems to me that where we have duplication of names that we would necessarily with this transcribing method without the sound scribing. where you could identify the voices, it would seem to me very important that we have the prefix of the given name before each of the surnames every time that we are recognized by the Chair. The sound scribing. I think would help partially in clarifying it because there would be a voice distinction.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers your point of order is well taken and the Chair shall remember that in the future. The Chair stands corrected. Mr. Hilscher?

HILSCHER: Mr. President, I think we have overlooked one basic part of our job in coming here to the University of Alaska to prepare this Constitution. According to law, one of our jobs is to secure ratification of this document if at all possible. Modern selling today is by ear and by eye and also by the written word. We are going to have to use all of them here in Alaska, and this certainly is a modern way of selling and imparting information. The press is fine, the radio is fine, by itself, every other medium is fine, but we have to get this across, and this will be the modern way of doing it, and we

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might just as well comply with the law.

METCALF: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Metcalf.

METCALF: The price worries me somewhat. I wonder if we could hear from Mr. Stewart as to what this is going to cost for the plenary sessions.

HINCKEL: I would like the information as to whether or not a permanent recording could be made. I have known of recordings of various things having been made in the past and then inadvertently the recording would be erased from the tape while being in use. If this can be a permanent recording I would be in favor of it. If there is any chance of it being erased while being in use I would not be in favor of it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Stewart can probably answer that. Mr. Stewart, we have had a discussion here on a motion by Mr. Taylor to authorize the Secretary, with the approval of the Rules Committee, to arrange for the tape recording of all plenary sessions of the Convention. (Secretary Stewart is now on the Convention floor.) The question of cost has arisen, other questions have arisen and the Convention is wondering if you could enlighten the members, give them a thorough enlightenment as to the purpose of the request.

SECRETARY: May I take the floor to do that?

PRESIDENT EGAN: If you would. If there is no objection, you may do so Mr. Stewart.

SECRETARY: I don't know whether Mr. Taylor has reported that the Statehood Committee investigated this matter and authorized me, as its executive officer, to meet with representatives of the radio station KFAR here which was making the recording for the first three days and to ask them to submit a statement as to what the arrangements would be and what the cost would be. and they did that and I have a statement here signed by Mr. Vincent Carroza, Manager of KFAR Broadcasting System. If I may, I'll just read the letter.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You may proceed.

SECRETARY: "Dear Sir: This is in reply to the request of the Alaska Statehood Committee for an estimate of expenses from KFAR radio for the tape recording of the Plenary Sessions of the Alaska Constitutional Convention. This estimate, which was requested in two parts (installation charge and hourly rate#, is hereby submitted:

1. Basic installation of Midnight Sun Broadcasting

9#

Company equipment and use thereof for the length of the Alaska Constitutional Convention $2,500.

Charge for each hour of recording the Plenary Sessions. This fee includes engineering labor, maintenance of equipment, cans for tape storage, recording tape, and labeling of tapes, storage, and transportation -- #2#.20."

Someone raised the question about the recording in Hawaii. In Hawaii they did record their full plenary sessions. They have since transcribed that tape which is still in existence there. I have in my files a full statement on the cost of their recording and the way it was handled. If you wish a further report on it, I don't recall in detail from memory ##,at it was, but this figure, if you want it transposed into total cost, assume that you had an hour a day on the average or even as much as two hours a day on any plenary session, you could arrive quickly at what it might ultimately cost for 75 days. I think it is relevant to consider at this price that through your Committee on Permanent Help we are preparing a statement of the monies available in terms of how much it must necessarily be committed in terms of your per diem and your transportation and other things so that maybe later today we could give you a better statement on what is the total available.. I think at this moment there would be sufficient monies for this if you desire to do it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Thank you Mr. Tom Stewart. Mr. Londborg.

LONDBORG: What I would like to find out is what the difference in equipment would be for the duration and the equipment we have right now recording these first two days.

HERMANN: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Hermann.

HERMANN: As I understand it, the equipment is sufficient. Maybe the radioman here can tell you that they installed it for the opening day themselves and they would have equipment I think sufficient to right now that is already installed. I don't think there is an additional installation charge.

LONDBORG: Then we are not being billed with #2,500 installation charge?

HERMANN: I think that is being billed to the Alaska Statehood Committee.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Should the Chair ask Mr. Bullock that question? (President Egan spoke with Mr. Bullock.) I am informed that they could have the manager of the station out here in a few minutes and we could take this up with him in a Committee of

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the Whole if it is so desired by the Convention. It would not be very long time until we could reconvene in a Committee of the Whole and take up this subject. Is there objection to doing that and requesting that the manager of the station be brought before us?

LEE: Mr. President, I come from a country where we can't go out and pick up gold nuggets off the ground. That seems like a considerable amount of money. I would like to direct a question to Mr. Stewart and ask him if there are any other agencies to do this type of work, other than this agency that is doing it at the present, and if is there any reason to believe that this is the best company to do the work?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon?

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent for about fifteen minutes recess while the Chair seeks to secure the station manager who may possibly give us further information and also while Mr. Stewart secures the actual cost of the Hawaiian delegation's taping of their recordings.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You ask unanimous consent that the Convention stand at recess until such time as the station manager can be requested to come here and also -- Mr. Lee?

LEE: Do I have permission to request that information from Mr. Stewart?

PRESIDENT EGAN: What was the question you asked, Mr. Lee? What is about the availability of other facilities?

LEE: I asked whether other agencies were available to do this kind of work.

SECRETARY: I don't know. Maybe I should give you a little more background. In anticipating this problem some months ago, the Statehood Committee wrote to about six of the national foundations the Ford Foundation and others and asked them if they might be interested in contributing funds to do this in the national interest and one of the foundations was interested and we had asked for $50,000 to do it. We had got some indication from an engineer that it would run up to that much to do a good job of it. Ultimately we were turned down on it and nothing more was done about it until about .a week ago when at the direction of the Statehood Committee, 1 made this contact with KFAR. I don't know whether anybody else here has adequate facilities to do it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Lee, perhaps if we could have Mr. Carroza out here we could get all that information. Does that answer your question as far as Mr. Stewart could answer it?

LEE: Yes, I am sure that will answer it. I am slightly

concerned with the proposition that we might be accused of showing favoritism to certain business and I would like to avoid that.

METCALF: Mr. Chairman?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Metcalf.

METCALF: Does the engineering department of the University have any facilities to take care of the problem for us at a minimum cost?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Does anyone know if that has been investigated by the committee? Well, Mr. McCutcheon's motion was a unanimous consent request. Mr. Kilcher?

KILCHER: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that these fifteen minutes be equally used to investigate whether the University has any facilities or not.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin?

MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. Chairman, during this recess, where do you desire us to put these renewed requests for committee assignments?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That would be a good suggestion, Mr. McLaughlin and if everyone would, during this recess -- if we have a recess -- put their new requests on the Secretary's desk. Unanimous consent is asked, is there objection to recess? Hearing none, Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: Can't we appoint a committee with power to act in this matter? I think everyone is very generally agreed that we don't want to waste any money. We have men here that know a lot about electronics and recordings. I can think of Chris Poulsen. He's in the theatre business. He knows about it. I have faith in those men. Why don't we just appoint a committee to talk to the radio people, talk to the University authorities, see if other people are available and let them take care of it? It seems awful trivial for the entire body to take up.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: I am heartily in sympathy with Delegate Hellenthal's remarks. However, it appears that there are many of the membership here concerned with some of the technicalities, especially the technicality of money; I think they should all be advised on that premise.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Carroza will be right out. If there is

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no objection then the Convention will stand at recess. The Convention is at recess. (2:50 p.m.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. The Chair has been informed that there is a green Dodge Coronet out front, license No. 477#. The doors are locked and the lights on. We have before us Mr. McCutcheon's motion which was to resolve ourselves into a Committee of the Whole for the purpose of hearing Mr. Carroza on this question of the cost of taping this Convention. Unanimous consent is asked that the Convention resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole. Is there objection? Hearing no objection the Convention is resolved into a Committee of the Whole.

(At this time the Committee of the Whole met.) The President appointed Mr. Sundborg to preside.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order.

DELEGATE SUNDBORG: Mr. President, your Committee of the Whole met and report progress.

HELLENTHAL: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: I move to divide the question and first put the proposition to the Assembly as to whether the proceedings should be recorded by tape and then take the second question. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal asks unanimous consent that the question be divided. Is there any objection?

BUCKALEW: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard.

HELLENTHAL: I so move.

SMITH: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It's been moved and seconded that the question be divided. Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: I would like to be advised what the division amounts to, what is the second portion that needs to be divided?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: The second portion would be that the matter be referred to the Committee on Administration or such other committee as the Chair thought proper to meet and secure

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competitive bids, if available, for the installation or rental of the device.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, the Committee on Administration is not yet constituted, in fact we don't even have a Committee on Committees which was going to advise with the President on the selection of members to that and the other committees.

HELLENTHAL: The alternative was that it be left to the Chair.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The motion as it appears on the record will be read by the Clerk up until the time of Mr. Hellenthal's suggestion. Mr. Riley?

RILEY: Is the matter open for discussion at this point?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley, it would be if you would allow the Clerk to read the original motion please.

CHIEF CLERK: Mr. Taylor moved that the Secretary be authorized subject to the approval of the Committee on Rules, to arrange for the tape recording of all plenary sessions of the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal, yours was more inclusive than that, your statement as to what would happen if the Convention decided to go ahead with taping the proceedings.

HELLENTHAL: I am a bit confused because there have been so many new thoughts injected. I thought if we divided the question first into the basic question, shall we make the tape. If that is decided in the negative then there is no further problem. Let's get that out of the way, then implement the Chair to take steps to set the machinery in motion if that is the wish of the body.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon does that satisfy your question as to what the division of the question would be?

MCCUTCHEON: Yes.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Then the question is, "Shall the question be divided?" All those in favor of dividing the question will say "aye". All opposed say "no". The ayes have it and the question will be divided. Now we have before us the question,

Shall the Convention order the taping of the planary sessions?" The question is opon for debate.

V. FISCHER: I don't want to make a motion to table this particular motion, because that would close off debato, but it seems to me that we are not ready to discuss and vote upon this

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motion until we have the answers that will be supplied by the second part of the divided motion. I would appreciate some comments on this particular point.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You are saying, Mr. Fischer, that it is your belief that perhaps the division should, in order to give everyone an opportunity to really decide in their minds, should be reversed?

V. FISClIER: That is more or less my opinion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Or do an investigation and then allowing the information, is that your position?

HELLENTHAL: My thought was a little different than that. Frankly, I think we are all in favor of making a record of the proceedings. Let's get that out of the way, then let's decide or get a committee to tell us how much it's going to cost after they've investigated and then decide whether we're going to pay for it or not.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Mr. Riley?

RILEY: I don't see the need of committing ourselves to have this service performed before we know what it is going to cost. I think that Mr. Nerland's approach as suggested during the Committee of the Whole is the proper one, and that is that it be assigned as an investigation to a com11ittee. We have two or three days ahead of us. We might obligate ourselves for the one or two days involved. For my own part I would like to reserve judgment until we know what it will cost and for that reason I think Mr. Fischer's suggestion is right and that the question should be stated in reverse order. Perhaps the one first proposed by Mr. Hellenthal should be deferred until next week.

BUCKALEW: Mr. Chairman

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew.

BUCKALEW: I move then that all of the motions I don't know how many there are all be tabled and that the Chair appoint a committee to consult with the gentlemen.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew, it is questionable in the mind of the Chair whether you can do a blanket tabling of all motions.

BUCKALEW: I make a motion then that the first one be tabled and then when that one is tabled, I'll move that the second one be tabled.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The question before us is, "Shall the Convention

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order the go-ahead with the taping of the plenary sessions?" BUCKALEW: That is the one I wanted to move tabled. PRESIDENT EGAN: Will you state the motion, Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: The motion is that whether we contact these people and order a tape be tabled. I don't know the exact words of the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers.

V. RIVERS: Point of order is that the question is merely an expression of opinion, not whether we shall order, but we want an opinion of this body as to whether we desire to have the tape. The question of whether we can afford it as Mr. Hellenthal said, will come up after we have the figures. The question has already been divided and I think the main question is in order and I am going to call for the main question.

MCCUTCHEON: I second it.

BUCKALEW: I have a motion it be tabled.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It was never seconded Mr. Buckalew. Mr. Rivers offers a motion and it has been seconded. It has been moved by Mr. Victor Rivers, seconded by Mr. McCutcheon that the previous question be ordered. In effect you are voting on whether or not to close off debate on the main motion. All those in favor of ordering the previous question say "aye", all opposed say "no". The "ayes" have it and the previous question is ordered and the question is, how does that read? Will the Clerk read that please?

CHIEF CLERK: "Shall the Convention order the taping of the session?"

PRESIDENT EGAN: The intention then Mr. Hellenthal, wasn't to order the taping, it was to

HELLENTHAL: No, if I said that, I stand corrected. I merely ment, shall the Convention favor the principle of taping the plenary session.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The question is, "Shall the Convention favor the principle of taping the #lenary sessions?" All those in favor of the motion say "aye , all opposed say "no". The quostion is carried. So the Convention is in favor of the principle of taping the plenary sessions. Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: I would move that the Chair appoint a committee of not to exceed five members to work with the radio stations or anybody else involved, to see what the cost of taping is going to

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run and along with that we continue to tape the sessions at least through Saturday of this week until we can get that information.

MCCUTCHEON: Point of order. I believe the second half of the divided question remains to be voted on.

HELLENTHAL: I consent to Mr. Davis' amendment. I believe it incorporates what I had in mind.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, Mr. Hellenthal would agree with a revision of the second half of the question. You have heard Mr. Davis's motion and unanimous consent was asked. Is there objection?

V. RIVERS: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard.

DAVIS: I so move.

METCALF: Second.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded -- Mr. Victor Rivers.

V. RIVERS: It seems to me we are in the process of appointing committees and this would normally fall under and the motion originally submitted falling under the Administrative and Rules Committee. It seems to be an unnecessary duplication of committees. Because I hope or see at least that maybe the Rules Committee we have constituted a Rules Committee at this time, which is a temporary one, or do we not?

PRESIDENT EGAN: It is a permanent one.

V. RIVERS: We have a permanent Rules Committee, then I would suggest then that we don't need another committee to enter into this picture.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: The Rules Committee however has an awful lot of work to do it appears to me. We have adopted only one very small portion of the rules that are going to be required by this body until we are really in position to proceed effectively here and as one member of the Rules Committee I would hate to have our Committee saddled with this problem of going into the rather tcchnical matter of getting costs on recording equipment and deciding what we should do about taping the proceedings of this Convention. I would certainly hope that a special committee that is not involved in the deliberations of the Rules Committee could be appointed by the Chair and

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go into that matter.

TAYLOR: Mr. President... ,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: I agree heartily with what Mr. Sundborg says about that. I feel that if we do as suggested by Mr. Davis we are making a negotiating and ourchasing committee out of the Rules Committee. It is beyond their province. This is one little isolated thing that has come up before this body of whether we are going to tape the proceedings. We have negotiated with the broadcasting company, and he is going to be here Monday with some figures. This is a place where a select committee for that particular purpose should be appointed by the Chair to carry on the negotiations with Mr. Carroza. I feel that the Rules Committee, as constituted now is a little top heavy, it's not their province and I think a like committee should be appointed by the Chair.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is the effect, Mr. Taylor, of Mr. Davis's proposal.

V. RIVERS: I withdraw my objection to the unanimous consent request.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Victor Rivers withdraws his objection to the unanimous consent request. Mr. McCutcheon?

MCCUTCHEON: It would appear to me that we are involving ourselves in discussion that is not necessary. The body has expressed a desire to develop figures on taping. The man here who is able to produce those figures understands that. By Saturday we will have a duly constituted Administrative Committee which would be a portion of their regular duties. Our man over here can't possibly develop the figures before Saturday. Consequently the committee would be organized and prepared for work by the time that any figures can be developed. It seems to me we're running around the hill here.

DAVIS: Mr. President,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: With the consent of my second I would amend my motion to say that the matter be referred to the Administration Committee when it is constituted. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard the unanimous consent request of Mr. Davis to amend his motion to say that the matter be referred to the Administration Committee when it is constituted. Mrs. Nordale.

105

NORDALE: I thought Mr. Carroza wanted some people to work with him between now and Saturday. That was my understanding. Maybe I misunderstood.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Carroza, would you like to answer that question?

MR. CARROZA: I should like to get to work on this project as quickly as possible. If it's possible to get together tonight, perhaps with several members for an hour or so, we might get these figures and get the answers as quickly as possible.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Davis, if the Chair may, Mr. Davis, I would like to call to the attention of the body that there is a Permanent Help Committee which more or less in the past in different organizations is in charge of that type of thing, and it still is a legally constituted committee of this Convention. It might be that immediately following adjournment tonight that that Committee could take this up with Mr. Carroza.

DAVIS: I have no objection.

HERMANN: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that you need a special committee for this work, and it should be composed of people who understand figures and have an intelligent comprehension of business. I don't accuse the Permanent Help Committee of not having it, but it has its job to do also, but it seems to me that you could get yourselves some good business men, accountants or people of that type, that would make a better committee to confer with Mr. Carroza than just a committee appointed for an entirely different type of work.

V. FISCHER: Mr. President.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer.

V. FISCHER: I was rising to make exactly the same point. There are probably poople here who are highly qualified to work on such a specific question. This will not be a committee of long standing. There will be no general session to:#orrow and that will be a good time for them to get togethcr on this.

PRESlDENT EGAN: Mr. Davis, your motion is still before us. Mr. Smith?

SMITH: It appears to me that this is a special problem calling for immediate action, and actually the only way to solve it is by the appointment of a special committee. That committee would not have to stay in sossion aftor their job was finished and it appears to me to be tho logical answer.

V. FISCHER: Mr. Chairman, since we have oxpressed the will to have this thing taped if financially possible, I am also in

10#

favor of having a special committee of any kind appointed today because a large part, maybe one of the most important parts, the beginning of this Convention, are already substandard, and if we prolong it any further, a larger proportion of the Convention will be substandard recording so we'd better go ahead and have it done quickly.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there any objection to Mr. Davis's unanimous consent request that a special committee be appointed?

V. FISCllER: Mr. President, his last request was to refer it to the Administration Committee.

DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, may I restate the original motion, then, that a special committee of not more than five me:#bers be appointed by the Chair to work with the radio stations or other people involved to find out the cost of taping these sessions.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard the motion. Mr. Davis asks unanimous consent. Is there objection? hearing no objection it is so ordered. The Chair will appoint a committee as quickly as possible. The Chair, if there is no objection, will at this point declare a ten-minute recess. The Convention is at recess.

AFTER RECESS

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. The Chair would like to announce at this time the appointment of the following committee as the select committee to confer with Mr. Carroza: Hilscher, Chairman; Mr. Harris, Mr. Nerland, Mr. White and Mr. Cooper. If there is no objection that committee will stand as the select committee. Mr. Buckalew.

BUCKALEW: I understand that we got a wire from some place down in the Third Division. I would like permission to have the wire read by the Clerk and put into the records of this Convention. I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection the wire can be read.

(The Secretary read the following wire.)

"Bill Egan, President

Constitutional Convention

The People in Valdez are very proud of you. Our best wishes and prayers are with you.

Judy Johnson, Socy.

Valdez Chamber of Commerce."

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(Applause)

HINCKEL: Mr. President,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hinckel.

HINCKEL: I would like to move and ask unanimous consent that the hour be established for the convening of the Convention at # o'clock in the morning on future days and that the arrangement for transportation be made prior to that so we can convene at # a.m.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hinckel asks then that it be the policy of the Convention to convene at # a.m. on every future working day and that the transportation be arranged to fit in with that time, which would mean leaving the Nordale then at #:30 in the morning rather than # o'clock. Mrs. Hermann.

HERMANN: We ran across a little difficulty in arranging the original schedule because of the conflict with the school bus operations. I think #:30 might be difficult with the bus.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr?

BARR: I object to that and I wonder if Mr. Hinckel realizes that later on when these committees really get down to work that he'll be on a committee and he'll be working some evenings as late as 10:30 or 11 o'clock at night and then if he has to be here by # o'clock plus of course your transportation is earlier, he's going to be a little bit over-worked.

COLLINS: Mr. President,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Collins.

COLLINS: I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Barr. In past experience his words cover the situation, for we are going to be loaded with committee work. The work is not all done right here. It will be in night sessions, and I for one have been tied up in a committee meeting until midnight or later, and to get up that early in the morning is out of the question. I think the old rule should be 10 o'clock.

PRESIDE#T EGAN: Actually, we don't having anything before us then if th#se statements are in the form of objections. Mr. Hinckel?

HINCKEL: I make it in the form of a motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hinckel moves that it be the policy of the Convention to convene at # o'clock in the mornings of every working day. Is there a second to the motion?

10#

POULSEN: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Poulsen seconds the motion. Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBBORG: I move to amend the motion of Mr. Hinckel to provide that the hour shall be #:30 o'clock rather than # o'clock.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg moved an amendment to the motion that the motion be amended to read #:30 o'clock instead of # o'clock.

ROBERTSON: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The motion was seconded by Mr. Robertson. The question now is on the amendment to the motion.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: All those in favor of the amendment to the motion, making it #:30 o'clock in the morning, say "aye", all opposed "no". And so the motion has been amended, and the question before you now is "Shall the Convention meet at #:30 daily on every future working day?" Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: No. President, it occurs to me that some people here don't realize that this time of the year we very frequently get extremely cold weather. If they have to get up that early, even at #:30, it is going to be a considerable difficulty, and it seems to me that oncethe committees are appointed and functioning that major work of this Convention will be done by the committees and they should be given more time to operate during the day. I would think that rather than meeting at #:30 the plenary sessions could well begin at 11 o'clock because otherwise the committees are not going to have any time to work unless they do it all night.

V. RIVERS: Mr. President,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Victor Rivers.

V. RIVERS: It seems to me that we are setting ourselves a time certain to adjourn here, and it does not seem entirely fittin# and it do#sn't se#m entirely necessary. We, in the early stages of the session, I am inclined to agree with what Maurice Johnson said a moment ago, that it is entirely possible that due to committee work we may desire to adjourn to 10 or 11 o'clock, but I can see possibly how we could want to start work before 10 o'clock in the early parts of the session. I can readily see how we ##i#ht want to reduce that time to #:30 or #:00 o'clock a little later or when we have some special work load or some special order of business. To tie ourselves down to a time certain for adjournment at this time does not seem to me to be the ideal thing to do. I think we

109

should possibly establish a precedent and as the work load increases, change it and increase the hour to meet.

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, we of course can change this time at any time in the future that the Constitutional Convention desires to do so. I believe the way the motion was put, that it shall be the policy of the Convention to meet at #:30 o'clock in the morning. For the time being that seems to me to be a good policy. When there is a different situation, if the weather is cold or if our work load changes from what it is at present, that is the time in which to change this, which we can do by a simple motion just as we are doing here. So I would ask support of the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion on the motion? If there is no further discussion, then the quostion is "Shall it be the policy of the Convention to convene at #:30 o'clock in the morning of every future working day?" All those in favor of the motion say "aye". All opposed say "no".

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Clerk will call the roll, please.

(The roll was called with the following result:

Ayes: 36 - Armstrong, Awes, Boswell, Coghill, Collins,

Cooper, Cross, Doogan, E#nberg, V. Fischer, Gray, Hellenthal, Hermann, Hilscher, Hinckel, Hurley, Kilcher, King, Knight, Lee, Londborg, McLaughlin, McNees, Nerland, Nordale, Poulsen, Riley, R. Rivers, Rosswog, Smith, Stewart, Sundborg, Sweeney, VanderLeest, Walsh, Mr. President.

Nays: 18 - Barr, Buckalew, Davis, H. Fischer, Harris,

Johnson, Laws, McCutcheon, McNealy, Marston, Metcalf, Nolan, Reader, V. Rivers, Robertson, Taylor, White, Wien.

Absent: 1 - Peratrovich.

PRESIDENT EGAN: And so it will be the policy of the Convention to meet at #:30 a.m. each morning. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I would like to move and ask unanimous consent that we stand at recess for 20 minutes for the purpose of the Committee on Permanent Help ##oeting.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection the Chair will declare a 20 minute recess in ordcr that the Committee on Permanent Help may have its meeting. The Convention is at recess.

(The Convention recessed at this time.)

110

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. The Chair would like to announce that the Fairbanks Chamber of Commerce is anxious to supply a name card to any delegate who does not have one. If all delegates who do not have their cards will report their names to the Secretary those cards will be made for you. The Chair would like to announce at this time the advisory Committee on Committees it has chosen to work with the President on the selection of the different committee assignments: Mr. White, Mr. Victor Rivers, Mr. Nolan, Mrs. Nordale, Mr. Londborg, Mr. McLaughlin, Mrs. Wien, Mr. Barr, and Mr. Gray.

HERMANN: May we have those again so that we can write them down?

(The Chief Clerk read the names.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Secretary states that he has recommendations for committee assignments from everyone except Mr. Laws. I note that Mr. Laws is not in the delegation right at present. Someone should tell him to turn in his slip. What is the pleasure of the Convention at this time? Is there any business to come before the Convention right at this moment? Mr. Riley.

RILEY: I would like to make an announcement of a Rules Committee meeting tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock in 1013 in the Polaris Building. I note that our rules indicate public notice will be given, and this is in line with that.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley announces a meeting of the Committee on Rules at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning in Apartment 1013 of the Polaris Building.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. President, where do you desire the advisory Committee on Committees to meet.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair was going to announce that before we adjourned Mr. McLaughlin. Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: I wonder if busses might be available to the members for attending the reception at the Patty house tonight.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there anyone here who has information on that? Are there busses that run out here in the evening or is it possible to get a bus?

HERMANN: It might be advisable to find out how many want bus transportation. I think we can get our own. I don't think that should be a Convention --

DAVIS: Oh, I don't think it should either, I thought we might charter one.

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PRESIDENT EGAN: I don't think Mr. Davis meant that the Convention was having anything to do with it.

HERMANN: Well, I think we ought to find out how many would want busses.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Gray?

GRAY: Here is a bus schedule. A bus leaves the depot every hour on the half hour - 2:30, 4:30, #:30, 7:30 and #:30 and the fare is 50 cents.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Where is the depot? GRAY: Across the street from the Northward, I think.

PRESIDENT EGAN: This reception is at # o'clock out here tonight, is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: #:00 until 11:00. When does the last bus run, Mr. Gray?

GRAY: The bus schedule that I have at the present time, they leave from down town at 7:30, #:30 and 11:30, and they leave from the University at 7:50, #:50 and 11:50 p.m.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Then if, I suppose it is just up to the members and the delegates to get together beforehand.and see how many want bus service and try to be at some place at some appointed time to get ready to come out here. Mr. Hilscher?

HILSC####: As a former resident of the FourthDivision and knowing how gosh darn cold it can get, I doubt if very many people are going to want to walk from the bus depot down here up to the Patty residence and taxi fare is, I guess, around #3.00 or #3.50, something like that. Everybody just as well had better figure on getting together and going in cabs.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr?

BARR: I wonder if there will be a reception line. If so, we should all be there on time.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: There will be.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Hermann?

HERMANN: I don't see why we can't arrange for a special bus to go out and come and get us on the same basis as in the morning, just as they do for the delegates.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor.

11#

TAYLOR: When I met with the committee of the Chamber of Commerce, Victor Hart who was with the bus service, he said he was going to do everything he could to make it pleasant for the people here and he has given efficient service and I am quite sure if he was contacted immediately after adjournment that he would be glad to run a bus for those members of the Convention and their wives or husbands who want to come out to the Patty's.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor would you be willing to contact Mr. l#rt immediately upon adjournment and then before, or everyone stay here and you could phone from upstairs

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: |#W many want the bus?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Perhaps right now, it wouldn't be out of order to find out how many want to come out on the bus. (Delegates raised their hands). About #0 or 21 and probably close to 30.

TAYLOR: Say 30? I will contact him immediately. PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Nerland?

NERLAND: The reason I believe that they set this reception from #:00 until 11:00 that we would come in groups or at least would not all arrive at one time. Certainly if 35 of us arrive with our wives and all arrive at one time and the local Chamber of Commerce people should be there, we would be standing in a line from the Patty residence down to the bottom of the hill.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is something to be kept in mind. Mr. Nolan?

NOLAN: Mr. President, I think that was Mr. Barr's question. Is there going to be a reception line?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Evidently there isn't going to be a reception line where all the delegates stand, Mr. Barr.

NERLAND: The local people are going to be in the line I believe.

MARSTON: Mr. President, I happen to know that there is going to be a reception committee and we are to be received. There will be a line to receive us there.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair would like to ask at this time that the members of the advisory Committee on Committees remain here after adjournment for a time and we will attempt to find out when we can get together and go over these committee assignments. Is there anything else to come before the Convention ###

113

Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: I request a temporary recess until we ascertain whether the committee that is now out, will have something to report to us so we can decide whether or not we can adjourn or wait their pleasure.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon that is a good suggestion. If there is no objection the Convention will stand at recess for a few minutes. The Convention is at recess.

9Convention recessed at this time.0

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Mr. President, we have a report from the Committee on Permanent Help. We wish not to submit it as a report for adoption but for a report as information to the Convention. It seems that your Committee on Permanent Help is somewhat tied to the permanent Committee on Administration, and we find we cannot devise a permanent help schedule until a budget is formulated to run the Convention. So therefore your Committee

. on Permanent Help has only submitted as a suggestion to the

Committee on Administration the following: a 15# raise over the last legislature's pay scale for the Chief Clerk, sergeantat-arms, four stenographers, a clerk typist, mimeograph operator, receptionist, messenger, doorkeeper and recording clerk. I can read the figures on that if you wish, but we feel that this is a recommendation from our Committee to the Chair, that we cannot operate successfully in the capacity in which we are endowed.

PRESIDENT EGAN: What is the pleasure of the Convention? Mr. Ralph Rivers.

R. RIVERS: I would like to supplement by saying that we agreed in the committee room that we have done all we could now in the way of exploratory work and preliminary processing. With the assistance from Mr. McKay and the Secretary we have quite a bit of the budget information available and are prepared, then if we are dissolved, to turn all our material over to the Com:#ittee on Administration as soon as it is organized.

V. RIVERS: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Committee report be accepted and that the Committee be discharged from its duties.

PRESIDENT EGA#: Mr. Victor Rivers moves and asks unanimous consent that the Committee report be accepted and that the Committee be discharged from its duties. Mrs. Hermann.

HERMANN: I don't want to make an objection but I want to

114

question one point in that report. Was there a chaplain named?

COGHILL: Mr. President, we were only acting in an exploratory

measure. We have not set down the full scale as yet because we have not been able to go into the full budget of the clerical and administrative help. So it is left undone to the Administrative Committee.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, didn't you state at the beginning that this was not a complete report?

COGHILL: This is not a complete report this is only as information to the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: I would object then to a unanimous motion for vote to discharge this Committee if they have only submitted a partial report. We should hear the rest of the report before we discharge them.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor, Mr. Coghill stated, as I understand, that the reason it is only a partial report that they worked on this and they found that they, with the authority that would be vested in them, didn't have the authority to go ahead with the partial report because they are not the Committee on Administration. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. Chairman, if you wish I could form it in a form of report that our exploratory measures of our Committee have been formulated and are ready to turn over to the permanent Committee on Administration -- if that will answer the question of Mr. Taylor.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Victor Rivers had already asked unanimous consent that the committee be discharged from its duties. There was no objection. The Chair is of the mind that unanimous consent request was adopted. Is that right Madam Secretary?

CHIEF CLERK: The motion was to accept the report, but there was no report because Mr. Coghill said it was just for information.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr.Rivers's motion, his unanimous consent request stated the acceptance of the report, you could amend that to say the acceptance of the statement of the Committee on Permanent Help. Mr. Armstrong.

ARMSTRONG: Is it possiblc that this Committee might be working until the permanent Committee is appointed? Is the research that they can follow through on to even bring more complete report in to the Committee? If so then I think the thought of

115

the language used is preliminary and they should be continued

until the other committee is formulated and then turn over

their files.

PRESIDENT EGAN: What is the pleasure of the Convention as

regards to Mr. Armstrong's suggestion? Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Having worked on this Committee, I would urge the

Convention and the Chair to do away with the Committee on

Permanent Help and to constitute the Committee on Administra-

tion so as to expedite the working gears of the Convention

and get it rolling for our Saturday morning session.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chairman had been thinking of this change that was going to be necessary and except for one addition to

the Committee, the name of Mr. Hilscher, the Chair at this

time would constitute the Committee on Administration with the same membership that the Permanent Help Committee had with the addition of Mr. Herb Hilscher's name to that list of committee members. If there is no objection

V. RIVERS: Mr. President, I still have a unanimous consent

request, which has not been accepted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: I thought that was accepted. What is the

status, Madam Secretary?

CHIEF CLERK: There was objection.

TAYLOR: I withdraw my objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection has been withdrawn.

R. RIVERS: I would ask that the Chair name the chairman of

that committee, Mr. Coghill has been doing a good job...

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is the way the Chair feels.

HERMANN: Mr. Chairman, in adding Mr. Hilscher to that committee do you now have eight members?

PRESIDENT EGAN: I think we have nine members the way the Chair has it is: Mr. Ralph Rivers, Mr. Kilcher, Mr. Coghill as

Chairman, Mr. Fischer, Mrs. Sweeney, Mr. McNees, Mr. Laws,

Mr. William Knight, and Herb Hilscher.

HERMANN: That makes nine members.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That makes it nine members. Yes Ma'am. Mr.

Nolan.

NOLAN: I think that somehwere in the rules that it states

. .#..#"

11#

that a member shall only serve on so many committees, and I wonder if all the members of the committees know that they would. be tied to that one. I was thinking that Mr. Ralph Rivers --

R. RIVERS: Two more would be enough for me. Three is the limit.

H. FISCHER: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hellenthal has also been serving on that committee and I don't think you mentioned him.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Fischer, it was probably the Chairman's fault for not mentioning that. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, you had nine members on that committee before you made the other appointment.

BARR: Did I not hear you name Mr. Hilscher twice?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair has for some reason neglected on his list to put Mr. Hellenthal's name although the Chair had appointed Mr. Hellenthal. Mr. Hellenthal has been serving all day on that committee. If there isn't any objection to having that committee as a ten-member committee Mr. Rivers?

R. RIVERS: Might I withdraw from the Committee on Permanent Help then so that Mr. Hellenthal, whose name was omitted, may be put on there, because I am more interested in the matter of the legal phases of the committee work.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Ralph Rivers is on the Rules Committee which is continually having a lot of work to do and he asks that his name be withdrawn from the Committee on Administration. If there is no objection it is so ordered and, with the addition of Mr. Herb Hilscher's name to the Committee it will leave the Committee with nine members. Is there objection? Mr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: The special Committee on Transportation is reporting. The bus company is very glad to furnish busses to leave the Nordale Hotel at # o'clock tonight, and the arrangements can be made as to the coming back as the group wishes. Also, they would like to know a little bit in advance before we adjourn so they can get the bus on the way out here.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention thanks the Committee for your report. It might be well right now to have the messenger phone the bus company and tell them the bus can leave town at this time. That would give a half hour before we're ready to go back if there's no objection from the Convention delegates. Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: Just a point of order. I don't think Mr. President,

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vou ever acted on the motion to abolish that Committee. Did the .Chair ever rule on it? Do you have to rule on it?

PRESIDENT EGAN: That was unanimous consent. The Chair thinks the unanimous consent request was accepted. The Chair will state that the unanimous consent request was adopted by the Convention and the Committee was abolished.

BUCKALEW: I just didn't want the Chair to have to appoint a committee to find out what committees weren't abolished that should have been abolished.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Well, the Chair will state that the unanimous consent request was adopted by the Convention and the Committee was abolished. Is there anything further to come before the Convention?

TAYLOR: Has the messenger phoned in?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The messenger went to call the bus company. Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Mr. President, subject to the announcement of any meeting, I move that the Convention stand adjourned until #:30 Saturday morning.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson moves that the Convention stand adjourned until #:30 Saturday morning. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I will second that motion that is on the floor but I would like to ask Mr. Stewart what time he would be available for our Committee to meet tomorrow?

SECRETARY: At your pleasure; anytime you desire, Mr. Chairman.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there anything further to come before the Convention. Mr. Davis?

DAVIS: I think we should arrange as to whether or not a bus will be available Saturday morning and if so where and how.

PRESIDENT EGAN: At #:00 o'clock. Now there is no bus schedule at # o'clock, regular bus schedule. It is #:30 and #:30 on the regular schedule. As of now, unless there was a special bus called for at # o'clock -- Mr. Rivers?

R. RIVERS: The bus picked us up this morning at # o'clock at the Nordale and that fits in with our policy so we should arrange to have a bus Saturday morning at # o'clock.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Stewart said that he would take care of that chore. The question before the Convention is adjournment until #:30 a.m. on Saturday.

11#

COGHILL: I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked. Is there objection? Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I would like to announce the committee meeting of the Administration Committee at 11 o'clock tomorrow morning at the Nordale Hotel, in the lobby.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Are there any other committee announcements? If not, is there objection to adjournment? Hearing no objection the Convention stands adjourned until #:30 o'clock Saturday morning.

(The Convention adjourned at 5:15 p.m.)